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[/vc_column_text][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row type=”full_width_background” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” scene_position=”center” top_padding=”0″ bottom_padding=”7%” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” row_border_radius=”none” row_border_radius_applies=”bg” class=”custom-p” overlay_strength=”0.3″ gradient_direction=”left_to_right” shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none” shape_type=””][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”left-right” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][toggles style=”default”][toggle color=”Default” title=”Episode Transcription”][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”padding-3-percent” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column_text]Intro 0:06
Welcome to hidden human, the podcast where we explore the stories behind the business leader. Get ready to hear insights from business leaders speaking candidly about how they became who they are today. And the lessons they learned along the way. And now, here’s your host, leadership coach and speaker, Kelly may about
Doug Foresta 0:29
you know, you know, Kelly, you were saying, I was asking you to kind of describe how you would like the departure point into this conversation. And you had said, you know, it’s just about shut up and listen, right?
Kelly Meerbott 0:41
Mm hmm. Yeah,
yeah. And then that came through an awareness that I had last week. And I had worked with this woman who just for the context of the story is, is a black woman. And she’s, she was working for a pharma company, and I was brought in to help work with the team. And what I didn’t know was that there was underlying racial tension between some of the team members, and the exercise we did was called, what I appreciate about you is, and the idea is to recognise their innate qualities, right, that are inherent to to people beyond their title and beyond what they do work, right. So ideally, like, if you and I were doing this exercise, I would say, Doug, what I appreciate about you, is your patience, your willingness to pivot with me, your ability to post things out of me, things like that, right? So, long story short, we get into the exercise, and this other woman, this team member who that this client had a some tension with, looks at her and says, Hey, I know we’ve had kind of a tough history and goes into this long thing about like, Hey, I know we had this long history and like I’ve contributed to your racial tension. But, you know, what I appreciate about you is your directness. So it was all this extra verbiage that didn’t need to be there. Right, right. And long story short, this was about a year and a half ago, probably fourth quarter. 2019 This happened. Right. So I haven’t seen this woman since then. And she said to me, you know, as a facilitator, Kelly, you should have put her in check. You should have shut it down. You should have stopped. And literally at that moment, Doug, I it was this awareness that I need to shut up and listen, and I need to listen to anybody who’s a member of the marginalised community if they say, it’s racist, or offensive, who the heck am I to argue with how they’re feeling? And like to take it even a step deeper? You know, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on this, you know, with your background is that emotions are not logical. But they’re not like, if you’re emotionally amped up about something that you’re attached to. It’s not you’re not going to pull out a technique, you’re not gonna, you know, it just it doesn’t. You cannot cure emotions with a tactic. You can, you can understand them, you can understand your trigger points, but you can’t like, pull out something in an emotional tornado and be like, Okay, this is gonna stop my emotions, right? So anyway, she was going on and on about, like, how hurt she was about how the fact that I didn’t stand up for her. And my response was, you’re right. You’re absolutely right. You know, and I, at that moment, it was like, if she was offended, then that’s her right? And I’m not here to debate it argue it politicise it polarise it. I am just here to listen and hold space and figure out how I can be better in the future. Yeah, you know.
Doug Foresta 4:14
Yeah. And I think that this is a big problem that, you know, that we’re seeing, you know, what was that? What about ism is one of the ways of doing that there’s a million ways of doing that. Right. Well, what about this? And what about that, and not believing people? I mean, this goes back to in a way. I mean, it goes back to sort of probably, you know, the very beginnings of human interaction, like, you know, just like you said, believe people when they tell you what their experiences and you know, I think one of the things we have to ask ourselves is, why are some people so invested in not hearing the experiences of other people and, and then whenever, you know, for example, whenever there’s a police shooting It’s like, well, this is an isolated incident, or this is why it happened or why did you know? why did why did they resist or that would never happen to me? Or? Well, there’s a few bad apples there’s a million excuses to silence and the gate. people’s experiences. Yeah. And
Kelly Meerbott 5:19
you know, as a, obviously, I’m never going to know what it’s like to be a member of a marginalised community in this country ever. But I can pull on my own experience and say, Hey, you know, back in college, I was gaslit. I know what that feels like. I know, it feels like it’s your, you know, it’s crazy making right you know, and, and my thought was, you know, you know, when the brand a Taylor case was in the forefront, one of the things I was talking to a colleague about, and he is an attorney at the Department of Justice. And his response was, well, that was a sloppily executed warrant. And he’s an attorney. And I was like, You know why? If that was one time, if it was a mistake, once I have hundreds of years, I would buy that, right. But I don’t buy it. I don’t buy it and like, Listen, this is me playing a little bit of an armchair your Monday morning quarterback, but my husband was in the military, anytime these police shootings happen. Our first thing is like the continuum force, like it’s the use of force continuum, every single law enforcement body goes through it. So it’s a nine step process from the moment they step on the scene to, you know, pulling a gun and every time something like this happens, I say, How did they go from Step nine to step one, and the only reason is literally power over and you can see that in in the Jerry Derek Shogun murder case, you know, I mean, he that’s a perfect example of power over, you know, and I was only able to watch that video once because it was just way too traumatising. It’s not something you want to watch again. Yeah. No. And there’s this one part. I’ll tell you the most disturbing thing for me, was the look on children’s face. Like if you look at it, he’s literally dissociated from his body, like and understand this is not that this is not a this is not me condoning it. This is not me. This is just understanding the deep depths of the horror and trauma of that, right? Because to me, when I look at somebody like that, I say, who hurt you as a child? Like what happened? Right you to make you want to take somebody’s life in such a horrific and public way?
Doug Foresta 7:53
And how did you become such a sociopath that you have? There’s, I mean, I think one of the things that horrifies us is that as human beings, we have, you know, this built in system of empathy that we wouldn’t if we were killing someone slowly. It’s one thing if, like, you know, I think we can all imagine sort of a heat of passion, you get into an argument, you throw a rock at someone, and oh, my God, I can’t believe I did that. But this is slow over nine minutes. I mean, that you don’t see any, you don’t see any empathy or any. There’s nothing It is I mean, the word sociopath is just what, what comes to mind like?
Kelly Meerbott 8:27
Yeah. And so my team has been prodding me to respond to everything that’s been going on. And frankly, Doug, I’m one of those people that it takes a long time to process things like this, right. And I’m also at this point in my career, where I’m not going to say something because it’s a performance. I’m going to say something because I’m really feeling it and like this outpouring of, you know, whether it was corporate or people like, oh, we’re we turned a corner. Well, No, we didn’t. Right. We didn’t. You know, I think of all these mothers like a wiser McLean’s mother or Tamir Rice’s mother or Sandra Bland parents who Sandra Bland is my age. I know they mean like Briana Taylor makiya, poor little makiya, Brian, who was just answering, like, all of these mothers have not gotten justice for oops, a sloppily you know, executed moron or, oops, I mistake my gun for my Yeah, excuse me. If you’re not capable of distinguishing a gun from a taser, you should not be policing period. Right? You need to get back into training. Sure, you know, I mean, it’s just too much it’s too much and until the justice system is evened out, really and not tipped against the Latinx. community, the LGBTQ plus community, the Asian community, Pacific Islanders, community, the black, I mean, insert marginalised until it is even it’s this is not To turn, it’s it’s a, it’s a good step in the right direction, but it’s not an up turning of the system. It’s not,
Doug Foresta 10:08
it’s not. And you know, what’s amazing to me is the way in which, so I’m not very likely to be shot by the police. And one of the reasons is because the fear that they would have about the repercussions of shooting me, let’s be honest, right, as a white person, I have a certain amount of power that they don’t know, I could be related to a judge. I could my uncle could be a politician. Right? Like, yeah, there’s a lot of reasons. But yet, with all of these things in the news, we still don’t really see a hesitancy on the part because you know why? Because it’s so deeply ingrained. It’s not even, I don’t think it’s sometimes it’s conscious. But sometimes it’s not even conscious. And even with everything that’s happened, you still see that cops don’t really hesitate. They don’t think to themselves, boy, how would this look?
Kelly Meerbott 10:59
Well, yeah. And it’s it. You know, I think also we’ve lost in our society, the difference between accountability and shame. Yeah. Right. So I’ll use a story from Bernie Brown, she was talking about how, like this, and again, forgive me, I predict pandemic brain just along with the rest of the world, right. So at some point, like, I think, as Texas was easing up the restrictions the first time, right, there was no plan, and Bernie Brown, who’s anybody if you don’t know who she is, she’s written tonnes of books. She’s got the number one, TED talk on vulnerability, like she’s, she’s a researcher and a social worker, and she’s unbelievable. So she tweeted to the governor, like, people are dying, what’s the plan? And people came back and we’re like, watch your shaming rhetoric, stay out of politics, she wasn’t shaming them, that they work for us politicians work for us. And I think, you know, that’s the other thing. I think we we as a people need to be more selective about who we’re putting in office. And these double talking snake oil salesmen or people are not are not cutting it anymore. They’re not. And you know, and it’s, it’s a shame because there are a lot of great voices out there could who could do a lot of good, but again, you know, we you have to be held accountable. I mean, like the January 6, I’m still not satisfied with what’s going on with that. I know. Nor am I, yeah. Um, now again, like, I’ll get the voice of reason here, which is my husband, you know, he did intelligence for the military. And he’s like, it’s gonna take a long time cow, because it’s a lot of evidence. And he’s right, they have to comb through video and all of this stuff. But it’s, it’s still like, come on, you know, and even the, the narrative around that versus Black Lives Matter is just what are you talking about? Like, you know, I see these peaceful protests around Black Lives Matter. And let’s, let’s be really honest, Doug, this is not about politics. This is not about who has what, who’s taking what this is about humanity. This is about people just wanting to live without fear, wanting to be respected, wanting to be appreciated, and wanting to have a little dignity. That’s all it is. They’re not asking for anything different. They’re asking to be treated the same way. So that when a cop comes up to you and I, they shouldn’t have the same fear as somebody who’s, who’s black or brown they shouldn’t. Like it shouldn’t even come into their minds that they should be able to shoot somebody and kill them dead. Like, you know, I told you before we even got on here. Like I’m reading this article from the washington post that was published on April 16 2021. And its police have fatally shot 22 children under the age of 16. Since 2015. Yeah, I mean, Adam Toledo. That just happened? Yeah. You know, he was I think he was six right? No, 1313 Chicago. Yeah. I’m Jeremy Jeremy Mattis was six and then Cameron Prescott. Also six Clara Meyer 12. I mean, can you imagine? Okay, parents, white parents. You can’t get there in your mind. Imagine your kid your white kid playing in your front yard and a police officer coming by and thinking he was playing with a water gun right? Your kids playing with the water gun fatally shoots them? What would you do? Right who yourself in these parents shoes. That’s the only way you’re gonna get there. But I think more more importantly than not, this is not a time to celebrate. This is not a time to put out a hollow press release. He says, this is a time to shut up and listen and stop using people, members of the marginalised communities Google, you have a question, you want to read a book, Google it, right? Do not use them. They are not your therapists are not your consultants. They’re not your punching bags. Your they’re not your trauma sponge. They are human beings trying to work through their own trauma, which, again, like, I can all of this too, because, you know, Ernest Jones, who’s a great friend of the show, he’s one of these people that keeps saying stop showing pictures and videos of black people getting shot, stop it. And I didn’t it didn’t even occur to me, but then I went back to my own past dog and I was like, that would be like me. What me watching a rape scene over and over and over and
Doug Foresta 15:51
just re traumatising herself.
Kelly Meerbott 15:55
And we wonder why members of these communities are angry? Yeah. If it were me, the word world would be burning. I mean, like, it just would I be that angry because it’s it’s horrific. It’s it’s horrific. And I think right now what we need to do is, is give these communities the space to heal, to work through whatever it is they need to work through and follow their lead. Right now, when they’re ready to talk. They’ll come talk to you When, when, you know, but I think we need to stay vigilant and keep pushing because the Derrick Tobin case was one step in the right direction. It’s not the final step
Doug Foresta 16:39
no any more any more than like Rosa Parks or, you know, like, in some ways we got taught in school that, you know, Mark, Dr. Martin Luther King ended racism. I mean, that’s just ridiculous. Right?
Unknown Speaker 16:50
I mean, right.
Doug Foresta 16:51
Yeah. I mean, the Java in case has not it. I mean, great that, you know, that there’s going to be justice, but we’re so far from where we need to be. And I agree with you, it’s one of my, the things that absolutely drives me insane. Is that we have to be so we’d have to be so mindful of not negating people’s experiences, and, and to really ask yourself, why if you are defending the status quo? Why do you feel so compelled to do that?
Kelly Meerbott 17:23
Yeah. Yeah. What do you think you’re protecting? Yeah, you know, and, and nine times out of 10, it’s conditioning. It’s just that’s what it is. It is conditioning. I mean, because, you know, I’ve talked about when I learned behaviour, and I was talking to very highly decorated officer in the military yesterday about it. And we were, you know, I was saying, you know, babies are born with two fears, the fear of loud noises and the fear of falling, everything else is learned. Yeah. So all of that is learned behaviour. Yeah. You know, and going back to what you were saying about Martin Luther King, I heard a quote from him that said, true peace is not merely the absence of tension. It’s the presence of justice. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it’s like, think about that, you know, I think about all of these mothers, like, when I was living in Florida, and the whole george Zimmerman case came out, and he should have been convicted as far as I’m concerned. I mean, it’s just it, you know, and here’s the bottom line. Like, all of these behaviours, that the black community accuses the white community of whether it’s gaslighting or brushing things under the rug, or talking over or white fragility. You and I have experienced behind closed doors with our family members. Sure. Like this is not none of this should be surprising or shocking behaviour. Yeah. I mean, I’ve been asked just I’ve been ostracised from intimate friend groups, because I didn’t agree with them. And then all of a sudden, I’m persona non grata and like, nobody’s looking at you is the same thing. It’s the same thing and I’m just tired of, of people getting all shocked and in their feelings, when really what we need to do is sit there and say, you know, you’re right, yeah, you’re right. We failed, we have failed over and over and over again. And, you know, I know you don’t believe us, but we’re gonna do what we can to make it right. And you’re just gonna have to give us time and the opportunity to demonstrate this because we have it. We have it you know, I mean, the same day the Derrick Tobin case was was being tried there were more police shootings. Yeah, you know, I mean, I don’t know if I was a police officer, which I probably would never be because I don’t follow the rules very well. Um, it I would think with all of this heat and and scrutiny that I would be minding my P’s and Q’s Yeah, like, you know, and getting myself back into training to stay sharp.
Doug Foresta 20:07
And that’s, that’s a whole other issue that we have, which is, you know, you don’t want to paint. You know, I certainly know people who are police officers who are, you know, really good police officers and would never do, you know, anything like what your child did and are very mindful of the, but at the same time, we have to acknowledge that historically, there’s been a lot of toxic masculinity that has been attracted to law enforcement. And, and the reason for some of these people to go into law enforcement has not been the healthiest reasons. And so, you know, that’s a whole other issue too, about, you know, who’s attracted, you know, what kinds of people are attracted to law enforcement, what types of personalities? That’s been an issue, you know, the Derrick Derrick champion should have never, in my opinion, I mean, I don’t obviously know him but from what I’ve read about him, I mean, he should not have been a police officer in the first place.
Kelly Meerbott 21:02
No, no, and like my thought is I’m I am an advocate of defund the place but the way I understand it, and this is Kelly’s world, of course, so doesn’t make it right. Just my opinion off the top of my head, um, is that we need to allocate funds for things that police shouldn’t be responding to, like, absolutely. Let’s look at Walter Wallace, who was killed here by police in in the summer in Philly. His mother called the cops because he was having a mental illness break, he was mentally ill, that is not a response for the cops, like we should have therapists we should have social workers, they should be responding, those funds should go to them, you know, like i, where i live in lower Merion, which again, is, you know, a suburb of Philadelphia, one of the lower Merion police officers told me, he was called to somebody’s house because of raccoons. That’s not his job. No, it’s not. That’s an animal control. Right. I mean, so like, I think that, you know, we really need to take a look at this. And I think the systems through which we filter people who should be officers should be a lot more stringent. So, Doug, you and I both know, the kinds of personalities like we can pick them out like this. Oh, yes. How? Well you are, you know, a former what psychologists trained psychologists clinical social worker, okay, so psycho we both work in psychology, James Jason industries, right? You and I can recognise that, you know, there has to be some kind of algorithm. I don’t know, screening process would be deaf, whatever. Yeah, that can filter these people out. And of course, I was joking with a colleague, I said, I’d be interested in seeing a research project done where they cross reference people who are applying to be police officers and people who are bullied in high school, right. Cuz I think that this is like an aggression thing too. And, and unhealed trauma. Yeah. You know, really, it’s, it’s, it’s exhausting. It’s, it’s exhausting. And, like, the thing is, I hesitate to say that because I know colleagues that are members of these marginalised communities and how exhausted they are, and I, I don’t give myself a lot of leeway when it comes to this. Like, I can’t get tired until it’s fixed. And, you know, we can only do that based on speaking out. So I would say stay aware, stay vigilant and listen a lot. Listen a lot. You know, and, and don’t re traumatise your, your black and brown friends by asking them to discuss this ad nauseum because that just adds to their trauma. If you’re curious, Google it. If you’re curious, go to YouTube. If you’re curious, talk with one of your white friends and figure out how you’re going to educate yourself and further things like, yeah, you know, I mean, it’s this is about human beings, human lives, human lives that are getting desecrated and destroyed just because of how they look. It makes no sense. It makes absolutely no sense. And, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s people just trying to survive and do their best. Yeah. You know, um, I keep thinking about Eric Garner, who was selling loose cigarettes, cigarettes, you know, just okay. You know, anybody who’s gone to New York City with that they sell everything on the streets there. Give me a break. You know, think about how what, you know, we’re this far apart from each other literally, like one bad thing can make you home. lis in a second, like, have a little empathy, have a little compassion. You know, imagine what it would be like to grow up black in America. You know, and if you can’t get there, email me and I’ll give you a resource guide. Yeah, you know what I mean? educate yourself. This is not new and honest. Pretending and feigning shock is is not helpful either, you know, because people can see through it. And it’s, it’s exhausting. And it’s, it’s, it’s destroying human beings. That’s what it is, you know, when this excuse that, oh, you know, it’s an accident or whatever, doesn’t apply anymore. But
Doug Foresta 25:47
that’s more gaslighting. It’s just more gaslighting. And yeah, yeah, like when the, our unwillingness to really hear people when they say this is a pattern, it is not just an isolated experience. You know, because I have heard people who have said, even people I know who are conservative, who have said, well, the Chavin case really was awful. But that’s an isolated incident. No, it’s not. Right. No, it’s no it’s not. Yeah. It just got caught on camera.
Kelly Meerbott 26:19
Yeah. Yeah. And thank God for that. Thank God for that.
Doug Foresta 26:24
And let’s be honest, if it hadn’t been, there’s absolutely Derek Johnson would still be on the street.
Kelly Meerbott 26:28
Oh, no kidding. Absolutely. No, no kidding. No kidding. I mean, it’s, it’s it’s shameful. And like the like I said, that I think that the video that killed me was there’s this moment where he almost he doubles down on George Floyd’s neck, you see him like, lean in harder on his knee. And it’s like, that is a human life, a human life, like Do you understand? And like, where, again, where’s your empathy and compassion? The man was gasping for air and calling for his mother like, You don’t? You don’t do that unless you’re at the end of your life. Especially, I mean, think about what black men are conditioned under, they have to be tough. They cannot. So he had to be in horrific pain. Yeah, I just I don’t it this is not a hard thing. This is this is not about politics. This is not about an isolate. This is about hundreds of years of societal conditioning and processes and procedures that have literally and figuratively had their necks, knees on the necks of marginalised people, period. You know, and this is not about me, like, you know, grandstanding or anything like that. I’m hoping that one white listener, who may not have considered this opens their mind. It just takes one. Yeah. Um, you know, and this is not about shaming, this is about waking you up. You know, what can you do? What can you use this for? to level the playing field? You know, and the other thing is, I heard this quote from anonymous, that said, Be a good person, but don’t waste your time trying to prove you’re a good person. Right? That’s right.
Unknown Speaker 28:25
The Quakers have a saying, you know, let your life speak. And I love that too. You know, it’s just, yeah,
Kelly Meerbott 28:31
you don’t need to go on social media and like, talk about what you’re doing, like, do that. Just do it, just be a person. And, you know, I love that, you know, I think I’m gonna put that up in front of my desk, let your life speak. I’m hoping that that’s what happens with me, you know, is that my life speaks and that maybe I make a difference? Or maybe I spotlight somebody who hasn’t been had the opportunity to be exposed to certain levels before, you know, but this police brutality has to stop and like, the, the late I did see, though, Doug, is when the chief of police and all his other colleagues are his testified against him. Yeah, that was a crack in you know, cracking the blue wall, right. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I think I have to believe that they’re good. They’re good people out there that see this and know, right from wrong. Um, you know, obviously, the system needs to be overhauled exponentially, but I mean, don’t cover up for somebody who you know, in your gut is not doing the right thing. Yeah. You know, I mean, what is Bernie brown say integrity is choosing courage over comfort. You know, and it’s, it’s time to get uncomfortable and stay uncomfortable until it’s fixed. Yeah. Those are my thoughts just off the top of my head.
Unknown Speaker 30:08
I think it’s really important, you know, and, you know, just when you said it, just one last thought here about what you said about being uncomfortable. I think I know this for myself, you know, when we, you know, if we are part of privileged community, it can feel very uncomfortable. And I’ve heard people say this, God, I just, you know, it’s so uncomfortable. so uncomfortable, even people saying, yeah, thank God, Joe Biden is president. And now I can relax. And I just want to also remind people that if, if you’re able to relax, that’s a privilege for you to do that. And not everyone is able to relax?
Kelly Meerbott 30:45
Yeah. 100%, you know, and it’s, you know, I learned this from my friends, or we’re our turn Kelly sorg. And les left side that comfort is a tenet of white supremacy. Yeah. You know, and if you think about it, like, let’s think about the refrain of discomfort about people, oh, I don’t want to wear a mask, because I’m uncomfortable. Well, guess what, it’s not about you. Right? I don’t want to take the vaccine because I mean, the latest I heard was, I’ll be marked for death by the devil. It’s not about you. The whole idea behind the vaccine is to loosen and help unclog our healthcare system. So the people who have been helping us for over a year now can frickin rest, man. You know, I mean, but yes, stay uncomfortable. You know, I mean, if you want to put it into terms that everybody can understand, it’s like working out, you know, are you gonna be storage shed after the first time? Yeah. But as you go on here, and you get stronger, you it’s just uncomfortable because you, you haven’t practised that. Yeah. You know, and it’s not about your comfort. It’s about saving people’s lives. Get over it. That’s right. So sorry, but I love it. I you know, I always love talking to your dog. I think this is an important discussion that everybody needs to have. And I would say in summary, remember, this is about human life. This is not about our egos. This is not about comfort. This is about having courage and standing up for what’s right. And, you know, it’s about listening and honouring stories of victims and believing them and not trying to what about or poke holes if they say it’s racist, it’s racist. Yeah. You don’t need a Gantt chart to fake that is emotions. If a member of the marginalised communities telling you that Shut your mouth and listen. Amen, and say thank you.
Outro 33:10
You’ve been listening to hidden human, the stories behind the business leader. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Kelly and the services she provides, visit you loud and clear.com thanks so much for listening, and we’ll be back soon with a new episode.[/vc_column_text][vc_column_text][/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/toggle][/toggles][/vc_column][/vc_row]
