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[/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][divider line_type=”Full Width Line” line_thickness=”1″ divider_color=”default” animate=”yes” delay=”50″][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row type=”in_container” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” scene_position=”center” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” row_border_radius=”none” row_border_radius_applies=”bg” overlay_strength=”0.3″ gradient_direction=”left_to_right” shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column_text]Author and co-founder of Talent Strategy Partners, Carol Vallone Mitchell, PhD, joins the program to discuss the work that she does helping companies identify and develop leaders who will build and nurture the right workplace culture. Carol discusses the research that she has done about how women lead differently than men, and what male leaders can learn from women. Discover how toxic masculinity shows up in society and in the workplace, and how to combat it.
To learn more about Carol, visit the links below:
Author of Collaboration Code: How Men Lead Culture Change and Nurture Tomorrow’s Leaders
https://rb.gy/tjjxel
https://www.facebook.com/
Author of Breaking Through “Bitch” How Women Can Shatter Stereotypes and Lead Fearlessly
https://www.facebook.com/
Author website
https://www.
[/vc_column_text][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row type=”full_width_background” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” scene_position=”center” top_padding=”0″ bottom_padding=”7%” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” row_border_radius=”none” row_border_radius_applies=”bg” class=”custom-p” overlay_strength=”0.3″ gradient_direction=”left_to_right” shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none” shape_type=””][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”left-right” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][toggles style=”default”][toggle color=”Default” title=”Episode Transcription”][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”padding-3-percent” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column_text][/vc_column_text][vc_column_text]Welcome to hidden human, the Podcast where we explore the stories behind the business leader. Get ready to hear insights from business leaders speaking candidly about how they became who they are today, and the lessons they learned along the way. And now, here’s your host, leadership coach and speaker, Kelly Meerbott.
Kelly Meerbott 13:30:31
Welcome to the space we were where we reveal our personal humanity to reconnect with our shared humanity. Let’s begin our conversation with my great friends colleague and literally brilliant minds. Carol Vallone Mitchell, PhD, who is the co founder of talent strategy partners with her our other good friend Pat Schaffer. She’s an author of both the collaboration code which everybody needs to go out and buy that immediately followed by breaking through bitch go out and buy that book immediately. Buy both of them, read them highlight right in the margins go review is awesome. And of course, she’s a researcher, which I’m still as a coach trying to figure out how I can be a researcher and get paid for it. So if you figure that out, Carol, will you let me know? Yes. Welcome to hidden human, we are thrilled to have you here. I’ve wanted to have you on for years. But it finally co in our schedules kind of matched up beautifully. So my first question is, if I were a six year old child, and you were trying to explain to me in a way I can understand what it is you do, how would you explain that?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:31:43
That’s a good one. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I would probably just say, I help companies figure out who they should get ready to go into leadership positions, right? Yeah. But that would be it.
Kelly Meerbott 13:32:02
Yeah, absolutely. And as a six year old child, as inquisitive as I am, I would have been like, what does that mean? And what do you do, but we’ll get into all of that. So you’ve written two very powerful books, which I definitely want to delve into the collaboration code. But talk to me about the moment in time, like, and I know, you and I have talked about this privately. That breaking through bitch was like the seed of an idea. What was what was the impetus behind writing that? Like? Did you have a defining moment that motivated it? And then, what was the process? Like, I think there’s a lot of mystery around writing a book that I would love to have you kind of dismantle for our audience. So, first part of the question is breaking through bitch, where’d that come from?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:32:48
Okay. Um, so, I was inspired to continue my research from my PhD program, which was looking at the difference between the competencies or the behaviors of male and female leaders. Because I do that women had to behave differently than men in leadership roles in order to be successful. I that was my hunch going in, and I really wanted to look at that. Um, so it was 2000, when, you know, I got my PhD. And in 2001, Pat, and I found a talent strategy partners. At that point in time, I wanted to write a book about the women’s leadership model that I had, you know, I had developed for my PhD and make it non academic. But it’s hard to start a business and write a book, particularly, I it’s like, how do you write a book? Right, so Sheryl Sandberg wrote lean in. And when that came out, my first reaction was, you know, why didn’t I publish my book before, you know, and I hadn’t appreciated the fact that what she had done is open the door to the discussion, and I had something to add, because I had done research not only at Penn, but also, you know, interviewing executives, as a professional for what, like 1314 years. And so anyway, I really, I wanted to do this. And in fact, I think you factor into this, Kelly. Yeah, because Pat had sat with you at the Pennsylvania women’s comp. rinse. And, and she taught she brought us together. I mean, she’s right, because she said she had told you about me and my work and and you had said, she has got to write that she’s got to write this. And you, I think, really were the first spark of reassurance or validation that this was something that was was still important. Because, you know, you were you were younger than me. So I’m like, wow, you know, if somebody in their 30s thinks this is important, I think I need to write the book.
Kelly Meerbott 13:35:43
Yeah. And I remember, so here’s, here’s when, when Pat was telling me about your research, so, you know, I spent 11 years in corporate before I became an executive coach. And I had these moments in my corporate career where things happen, and I was like, Is that about me? Or, like, for instance, I would make like, during, I don’t know, a meeting in a conference room, I would say something like, bring up an idea. And they would pass over it. And then five minutes later, our male counterpart would repeat exactly verbatim, the same thing. And all of a sudden, it’s this genius idea that deserves a Nobel Peace Prize. You know what I mean? And it was like, Okay, wait a second. I just said that. And then I remember during corporate like, calling that out and being chastised for calling that out and saying, like, well, this is a team and like, why wouldn’t you do it. And it was not about sharing my ideas. Like I’m all about that, you know that. But it was just, it just felt icky. And then there was another moment. And I think I’ve told you about this, where I was hosting another radio show in Philadelphia. And we had set up this really successful follow up system. So like, I would have those great conversations like I’m having with you. And then I would email them like this show, it ended at 12. By two o’clock in their inbox, they would have to have a follow up email. Hey, Carol, it was really nice. What a great way to spend morning, would you be willing to continue the conversation over coffee, which we would do, and my approach when I meet with a prospect is to let them talk. And then typically, right around, I don’t know, the 45 minute mark of the meeting, they’ll turn around and go, Kelly, what do you do? You know, so it’s that law of reciprocity, right? So Right? Literally, it was I was closing clients like crazy. And there was this group of white men. And they were involved in sponsor this show. And they were all upset because they weren’t getting any kind of business. And they called a meeting. And it’s me, and probably about 10 to 15. White guys, okay, around this conference table. And they’re all discussing why they’re not getting business. And then they turn to Me simultaneously. Well, how are you doing it? And I told them step by step, I said, we’re following up, we go meet with them, we make it about them. And they literally close ranks on me turn their backs and close ranks on me. And I never felt that before. And I was and I wasn’t incorperate. I was, you know, a coach at that point. And I go, I remember thinking to myself, Oh, this is what this feels like. And it was bottom line. It was egoic. Like, they were just like, How is this 30 something, you know, doing this, and I shared it with them. And they still, you know, didn’t and it was weird. It was just odd. So when Pat came to me and said this, I was like, Oh, my God, please, because I want to see the research behind it. So really, Carol, what I’m fascinated by is this 11 years of research, you go in with this hunch that women lead differently. First of all, how many people how many executives to do interview? Do you know?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:39:06
Oh, gosh, well, when I was actually doing the book, I you know, I did a fresh set of research. I’m adding women, because I had a balance of men and women from my, from my dissertation. Right. So and then, of course, we’ve been doing leadership development work as a company, and we do behavioral event interviewing often and build competency models. So I had that data. Yeah, so I can’t you know, I don’t know. I mean, I would guess that I would guess that I probably have 25 voices involved in the women’s leadership model.
Kelly Meerbott 13:39:54
Okay. Yeah. So alright, so you go with this hunch that women lead differently. What did the data tell you?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:40:02
It did. I, what I did is I, you know, I first looked at men and women together and could see that women were they had a competency. Well, first of all, influence was really a big competency among the successful women. But the other thing they had, which is something that I was a little squeamish about mentioning, right? Was, and I originally called it tempering, assertiveness. And you can imagine, I’m like, as a feminist, I’m telling people tone it down, you know, right. Basically, I did. And it’s in the book that way. It’s called tempering, assertiveness. I’ve renamed it balancing assertiveness. Because that’s really what it is. It’s it’s really that smart women and in roles of power. intimidate people. Yeah. It just I mean, it’s, this goes back for a long time in history. Yeah. So. So anyway, what I discovered was that women in order to really demonstrate their mastery, and their confidence, they have to be very inclusive, so that people feel that they’re doing it with you. Okay, right. And then the the other thing around balance, and assertiveness is your humor, warmth, you know, whatever is your thing, that that helps people relate to you. Okay? Because that’s, that’s what you really want, you want people to be able to relate to you. And the model is really about balancing gender expectations and leadership expectations. Yeah, so you have to be a strong leader that people can rely on. But at the same time, as a woman, they see you as they want you to be nurturing, they want you to be you know, so it’s a balancing act, is what I discovered.
Kelly Meerbott 13:42:32
So when you define influence in this context, how do you define that?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:42:39
So I actually broke influence into three categories, and called them three different competencies, quite honestly. I mean, one is around persuasion, it’s about persuading up. So which is huge, being able to influence influence people who have more power than you in the organization or outside? Yeah. Right. And then then there’s also it’s inspiring. Commitment, which is influencing down and around. Yeah, right.
Kelly Meerbott 13:43:18
So the whole, I hate to use this because you and I are in leadership development, no. 360s are beat to death. But it’s a 360 view. It’s, you know, leading up leading laterally and leading down. And of course, as I listened to you, and I’ve been wanting to ask you this question forever. Sure. Because every time the news story comes out, I’m like, wondering what Carol thinks about this. And I know, you’re probably not gonna be surprised. So obviously, we’ve seen the countries that have responded to COVID-19. Better. Yes, our female lead. So does that surprise you? And why or why not?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:43:54
Well, in fact, I wrote an article about this. And it’s in chief learning officer magazine. Actually, it’s online. It came out in October, but I was watching this, and it didn’t surprise me at all. But here I am, which I know we’re gonna get to later on. I was doing research around men who lead collaboratively. Yeah. And I looked at it and I I’m like, oh, when people were writing about it, like in op eds, right. So it was pretty well out there that, you know, the country leaders that have been successful. It’s not that they’re necessarily all women. Right? But the leaders that really screwed it up. Were all men and they were men that led in a very, you know, egocentric, you know, authoritarian terian kind of style. Yeah, so, yeah, so I mean, My article and I collaborated with a male colleague of mine who’s also an organizational psychologist and coach. Because he, he kind of ranged me because I can very easily go down the, you know, thing around about women and, you know, to, to to come out as this roaring feminist in support of female leadership. I thought it might not be such a great idea to do that when I’m about to release a book about men. Because I don’t want yeah, so. But but it was a great exercise because I, I looked at it. And I’m like, Well, wait a second. All of the all of the women that were highlighted from from various countries, they were all leading collaboratively, as successful women, do they? Yeah, they they didn’t think that they needed to be the expert, or have the final call they, you know, brought peace. They were very inclusive. Yeah. And not only that, the empathy that they had with their peers, as well as the people that, you know, they were leaving responsible for. That was very evident. Yeah. So, um, and my, in the article, I actually point out that, you know, men can lead this way too. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott 13:46:32
100%. And, you know, as I’m listening to you, I think I want to bust a myth with you if that’s okay. Yeah. I don’t think feminist or actually let me drop the I don’t think feminist does not equal man hater.
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:46:45
Absolutely not. Yeah. Right.
Kelly Meerbott 13:46:48
So, like, it was something I’m thinking about, as you know, I’ve been labeled that. Oh, you must be a man hater. No, I’m not. No, I’m not. I’m just fighting for equality for everybody, you know, an equal playing field. But I think the mistake that many people make is they look at people like us and go, Oh, they’re feminists. They must hate men. Well, no, I have great men in my life. I love my high, because I know you’re married as well. Yes. You know, there are some great men out there. I mean, we had Ernest Jones on a couple of weeks ago, who’s an award winning journalist. He’s a black, openly gay man who is a feminist and like, that is possible. And I just want to make sure that that’s really clear to the audience that just because somebody labels you a feminist doesn’t mean that Carol and I are out storming the streets, right? You know, trying to castrate men. That’s not what we’re trying to do. And what I take from you, Carol, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that you and I are out there kind of approaching life as we believe that these two groups can be better. We believe in the potential of being better, which is why I think for me, when I when I heard about collaboration code and toxic masculinity, that it’s for me, it’s a calling forward of men to be better. Like, we know, you can be better than this. We know. You know, we just want you to rise up and meet the challenge and stop making excuses. At least in my mind. I’m probably spin on that. But talk to me about your journey of becoming a feminist. Like, how young were you when you first realized that that’s what you were doing that you were, you know, fighting for women’s rights?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:48:32
I was a pretty late bloomer. Okay. Right. Because, you know, I, I really, I grew up in a Catholic family, Catholic school until, you know, I was 18. Right. And, you know, that if you wanted to do another podcast, I could, I could go into that. But
Kelly Meerbott 13:49:02
yeah, because both of us were raised in Catholic household. So I know you and I have traded stories on battle scars from that upbringing.
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:49:10
But, you know, it’s, it’s really that you are socialized in a way that make you feel that, you know, women have to be you know, virgins or you know, I mean, yeah, it’s just, it’s just this. Yeah, so anyway,
Kelly Meerbott 13:49:36
stop you for a second. Let’s give our listeners a little taste and I’m gonna give a story from my own life. So this is is Catholic upbringing in in a nutshell really fast. Okay. So much like Carol. I grew up in an Italian slash Irish Catholic household. We had priests to dinner. I serve the Eucharist. As I read from the lecture, I mean, like, this is what it was right? My husband and I go to get married, and we have to do a pre Cana thing. Yeah, yeah. It’s an eight hour day to indoctrinate you into what you’re supposed to be as a married couple. Now, yes, most of our listeners know that I’m all about equality and all about doing women’s and people making their own choices for themselves, right. So we’re in this thing, and I started hearing how women are supposed to cleave to their husbands and procreate, and all of this stuff. Now my husband and I, at that point, were engaged. We had decided we didn’t want children, like we made a very conscious decision. And it ended up that physically, I couldn’t have them. But we made that conscious decision. So the priest is going on and on about this, and we have a break, right? And Kelly being Kelly has to ask the question, despite the fact that my fiance is grabbing me and saying, Please don’t ask any questions. So I go up to the priest, and I said, Well, what if I don’t want to procreate? What if I want a career? And without even taking a breath, he looked at me and said, You need to find a therapist. You need to find a therapist and get counseling about that. Am I wrong? Is that a good story to illustrate with the Catholic Church is like?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:51:17
Well, I mean, as you were telling that story, I went through the same thing, where, you know, I, and this is I married a second time, this was I went through this with, you know, getting married to my first husband, where who and I was, we were only together for five years. And we were young. But the thing about having children, it’s not that I was against, or we had talked about not having children or having children. But it was just this expectation. Yes, you you will. And it was also this expectation that you would be serving your husband, there was a lack of reciprocity in the relationship. And in fact, that played out very much in my first marriage. I mean, it was, I mean, it was so subtle, you know, it was just so insidious. Yes. You know, he would make decisions without talking to me about it. And I was just, I mean, it took me years before I kind of realized what happens in our marriage. But I blame that on the socialization that I had all those years about, you know, you’ve got you have to what’s the word? I mean, you’re really looking to somebody else to make the decisions. You know, they are sort of the outward facing part of the couple. Yes. You know, his career is going to take first, you know, priority over yours. And, yeah, and particularly, if they have a pretty prominent professional career. I mean, I was like, I was entertainment at these executive parties, because it’s like, Oh, she’s so cute. And she’s so energetic. And she’s, you know, she’s a researcher, she’s a scientist. And, you know, I wanted to talk to the guys, I didn’t want to talk to the women that were married and didn’t do anything. But, you know, so anyway, there you have, oh,
Kelly Meerbott 13:53:34
I mean, and to kind of dovetail off of what you’re saying the implication and the messaging I got from that priest was, as a woman, you will not have value in this ecosystem in like, procreate. You know what I mean? And like, I was, I grew up in Palm Beach County. Okay, so I was around those women. And I have no judgment about them, because I can’t I don’t know what their stories are. But I’ve seen these brilliant women take a backseat to their husband, because they have been conditioned to believe that they are the accessory, the token, the baby maker, the cook. I mean, like the title, right. And it’s even
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:54:16
it’s even pointed out as admirable. I mean, I remember. I mean, I remember my first husband saying, Well, you know, this couple that was like, 10 years older, you know, the woman Oh, you know, she’s brilliant. Right. But look, she she took a step back from her career. You know, he was just instructing me about, you know, you can still be smart and have a career but, you know, you really need to give preference to your husband.
Kelly Meerbott 13:54:47
Yeah. And deference, which like anybody who knows Carolyn, that’s not really who we are like, yeah,
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:54:54
well it but it’s how We, it’s how we were how we grew. It’s how we grew up. And yeah, yeah. So I mean, it took years, you know, I mean, obviously, there are wonderful men in my life. The one of whom, you know, I’ve been married to for 30 years that we, you know, he’s, he is a great guy, and I worked with him, I actually worked for him for a short period of time, but in the lab, and I mean, I had my own projects, you know, I had people working for me, and we can and I would go, you know, to a meeting, and almost all the time, the other scientist would direct questions at him. Yep, instead of me. And he would just deflect it. Like, really? You know, Carol knows much more about that. This is what she’s working out. So,
Kelly Meerbott 13:55:53
yeah, it’s insane that that happened
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:55:57
when then and yeah, and the other thing is that you got me going here. Yeah, please. I thought it was my problem, because I wasn’t. I wasn’t projecting confidence. Yes. Like, if I were doing something differently, this wouldn’t be happening. So it’s my fault. right with
Kelly Meerbott 13:56:18
me? Yeah. 100%. I’d been there, sister. I mean, like that. We have this happen. Okay. It has to be a couple of years ago. So we live in Narberth. Right. And our H vac system, we bought the house in 2018. But the HX system looked a little wonky. And the first year I was like, we’re not going to replace it, we’ll just get it repaired. Right? So the, the guy comes out, he’s looking at it, he’s like, okay, you can either clean it up, there’s a, there’s a couple of hoses missing, we really need to replace it, right. So I said, alright, we’ll just service it, it’ll be fine. Now I’m the what, like we split expenses. So I was paying for this right. Next thing I know, I’m getting an email from the owner, who says we absolutely need to replace the H vac system. And I was like, that’s weird. He said that we could get through another two years with it like and I grew up in South Florida, we’re in Pennsylvania, I know how often that runs, doesn’t run as much as it did down there. Okay. So I’m sitting there. And I’m like, well, the, the tech told me that we just needed it to be serviced. The guy, the owner comes back and says, Well, he explained it to your husband, why don’t you talk to him? And at that point, all bets are off. I’m done. I was like, first of all, I was standing right there when he told me, I said, That is not what he said. I said, and he goes, Well, maybe we can come back out. I go, No, we’re done. Yeah, doesn’t have a client anymore. I had that happen a couple of months ago, and we’re trying to put in solar, and the guys in our house joking around thinking it’s funny. And he goes, Oh, it’s always the wife that gets pissed off, isn’t it? And I looked at him and he goes, What’s, what’s wrong with you? Why are you so upset? I said, You need to leave now. And you can take us off your list. Because I’m and I caught my my good. My girlfriends. And I’m like, this is where my mind went. Am I overreacting? Am I being hypersensitive? Am I know, he was being a misogynistic asshole. So and going back to Ken and Brian, my husband? Yeah. So Brian, you know, he went into the military when he was 17 went into the Navy. If he was in the room right now, he would say to you, and he truly believes this. That the best leaders he had in the military were women, the ones he thrived under were women. And he’s like, I love working with women. And I’m like this. So why am I telling you this? Because,
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:58:58
yeah, there are many
Kelly Meerbott 13:59:00
canon Brian out there.
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:59:01
Yes. When you when you came to the launch party, at our house for breaking through bitch, Brian was with you. And Brian did tell me that, you know that the best the best people that he reported to in the military were women. And yeah, and I was like, oh, that’s, that’s great. You’re, you’re an enlightened person. Right. So let’s let’s
Kelly Meerbott 13:59:28
talk about toxic masculinity, because that’s a great question. Because Okay, so Brian’s got an amazing mother Jackie. Right. She’s a very strong independent, self sufficient women. Woman. Does the mother figure in the man’s life have influence over how they show up? And how does that happen in terms of, and let’s get into the collaboration code, because we really, I really do want to talk about Yeah,
Carol Vallone Mitchell 13:59:54
yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, with breaking through bitch, I found that the successful female leaders always always pointed to a male family member, who was they were really critical to their development as a person and a leader. Yep, with collaboration code. I literally, you know, I’m interviewing these collaborative male leaders. And every one of them, they would point out like their mother, grandmother. Ants, yo, and I mean, after you hear this, you know, three or four times, like the fifth time you’re going, really? Oh, my God.
Kelly Meerbott 14:00:43
Yeah. And let’s, let’s flip it to the other side. So like, here’s what I tell, like, I’ve told you, I’m coaching really high level military officers, right? When they asked me questions, and most of our men, most of them are white men. When they ask me questions about their daughters, and what they need to do, I tell them this story. The female leaders that I know are most successful had a father that didn’t treat them as if they were precious. They said, You, you’re smart, they would compliment them on things other than their appearance. And they would also tell them, they were capable of doing anything that men do. Right, you know, so I really think this I mean, this parent dynamic, I’m really interested in that, you know, as an influence, you’ve already said, it does have an influence on it, which is what I expected. But was there anything surprising where you were just like, Oh, my God, I had no idea that that was part of what shaped the path of a collaborative? And wait, let me let me back up for a second. Yeah. Why don’t you define for our listeners what toxic masculinity is? Because I, yeah, that’s term and I didn’t know what it was.
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:01:51
So it’s something that I became familiar with. And around the me to movement. Okay. Um, specifically, and, and thinking about sexual harassment. I wanted, I wanted to write an article. Because, you know, of the familiarity I had with women’s leadership, and I was thinking, how can women somehow offset this, but I started looking at the sexual harassment cases that were in the news. And I’m like, and I called it hypermasculinity. It was, it’s this. It’s this having to prove oneself as being strong. You know, you’ve got like, these guys that are ripped, and they, they don’t listen, they I wish I had a little more time to kind of process this and, and be more.
Kelly Meerbott 14:03:01
No, no, you’re doing beautifully
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:03:04
exact about it. But it’s, it is you can’t be vulnerable. Yep. And in fact, there’s this physical presence that that they present, shows that they’re not vulnerable, that shows they have power, and it’s around, there’s that physical thing, or lots of money is power. Yep. Right. So it’s an act actually, the other thing is like the intellectual thing, because you know, there are plenty of there plenty of men that I would say, Show toxic masculinity that aren’t all built and, and don’t have a lot of money yet, but they’re really, really smart. And then they make a lot of money. Yeah. In Silicon Valley.
Kelly Meerbott 14:03:57
Yeah. And then that adds fuel to the fire. I mean, like, that was actually something Ernest Owens was saying on his recent podcast, he’s like, you know, you think money and power will make it better, but it makes it worse. So here’s how I understand toxic masculinity is it’s like the you can’t show your softer side that’s weakness. Right? And it’s a Oh, you hurt yourself, whether it’s physically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. Yeah, goes on and on and on. And then that, you know, so let me back up with the me to movement because I know you and I have talked about this. And I don’t know if I’ve ever talked about it on the podcast, but I’m a two times sexual assault survivor. Okay, so it happened to me when I was 19. twice, once in September of 95. And again by two other separate men from the first one in October, and you know, obviously, I’ve done my work I’ve been in therapy I’ve you know, gotten all that but what What was really interesting was so the military is asking me to do training on sexual harassment and sexual assault prevention. Well, the first thing I did was called my shrink. And I was like, okay, I can definitely do this. But I want to make sure I don’t re traumatize myself. And he said something that I didn’t even click in. And this is where I’m really interested to hear your thoughts. He said, We know that rape is a crime of anger and control. So here’s, here’s what I’m wondering. And I don’t know how to formulate this question. So you may have to help me out here. But I think that there’s pressure to be tough guy, rub some dirt on a kid, don’t be in pain, causes all this pressure underneath, right that has that has nowhere to go. It’s expressing the unexpressed, and they take it out on whoever’s in their path. And am I hitting something here? Completely off?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:05:56
Um, I think that I think there’s probably they’re probably apps is something like that going on. But at the same time, being aware, I am not, I’ve never been sexually assaulted. I’m not really, as a professional, you know. But I think that there are men out there that aren’t. It’s, it doesn’t come out of anger. It comes out of this overinflated ego and power trip. Yeah. And you know, and really, they can accept that. Whoever the person is. Wouldn’t want this. Like they just it’s like there. Yeah, can hear it, right.
Kelly Meerbott 14:06:47
Yes. Yes. And I remember one of them saying to me, first of all, as he left me, he said, It’s okay. You’re a slut. Don’t worry about it. You know what I mean? And it’s just like, Really? Really? You know? Um, but yeah, I do think it’s a control. And I love that, that bringing the ego because I believe there’s an ego ego hijacking there, so Oh,
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:07:15
yeah. Yeah. I, so this is just something that I heard about along the side, because again, I’m reading about this hyper masculinity and how we influence young men to suppress their, their good emotions. Right. But there’s, there’s always been, I think, boys are always trying to prove that they’re men. Right. And, and one of the ways I mean, I, I heard this horrible, it was a mention, it wasn’t a full story. But it was, it was a guy who was doing a selfie, you know, of assaulting this woman who was, you know, had passed out. And it made me I mean, even saying, it makes me ill. And he was texting it to all of his friends. And it was like going viral. And I thought, I mean, basically, he was raping this woman over photo photograph. I mean, like, videotaping it and sending it out. Like, aren’t, aren’t I cool? And I just, I just wanted to be ill. I really, and I, but I had to mention it. I think it’s, it’s it wasn’t like, he had anger toward women. I, you know, maybe, but I think it was just proving himself as being, you know, a tough guy, as you say.
Kelly Meerbott 14:09:06
Yeah. And I agree with you. And it actually triggered a memory of the second incident was done by two football players. They both took pictures of me during the incident and put them up in the locker room. Luckily, the coaches took it down. But the narrative that they told everybody on the football team now you got to imagine my college had 2400 students, right? They told all of their buddies, 90 buddies on on the football team that I liked Minaj ATW Ah, yeah. But wait. One day, I’m walking to class, and I hear this group of girls behind me. Okay, and you know, like as women we know, when people are talking about us, I’m wearing a skirt as I’m walking to class and I’m feeling moisture on the back of my calves and I’m like, the hell turned around. These girls are spitting on me and calling me a sloth. Because they believe their boyfriends. So to your point, like, I’m not telling you this to say, Oh, I’m poor Kelly, that’s not it. It’s to reaffirm the fact that this is bragging rights. Yeah, yeah. And I think back to the Stanford rape case where that frickin judge said, yes, these will be boys.
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:10:18
Right? Right.
Kelly Meerbott 14:10:21
So again, it’s this compounding of conditioning. So okay, Carol. So we’ve talked about some pretty crappy stuff. How do we fix this? How do we how do we combat toxic masculinity? How do you do it?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:10:35
Um, so there is a book that I want to read. It’s, it’s a professor at Towson University. His name is Andrew Reiner. Okay. And Adam Grant referred me to Andrew because I wanted to talk about masculinity and collaborative leadership. And specifically, you know, I’d said to Adam, you know, I think I think masculinity gets in the way of men being collaborative leaders. Yes. Right. So, so Andrew wrote a book called Better boys, better men. And it’s all about the socialization of boys. And I, what I don’t know, is, if he is unpacking it, without I doubt it. I was gonna say, without sort of recommending how this could be different. I, but, um, but as far as I think it has to start early. Yeah. And, you know, I for, for my book collaboration code, since it is it’s a business book, I wrote it. I put a lot of love into it. I, over the course of writing the book, I really repaired my relationship with masculinity, in the sense that, because I, I’ve never been a big fan of masculinity. Yeah. I mean, some people might have said that I hate man. Because, you know, there were only a few kinds of men that I would even deal with, right. But my world opened up as I was doing this research, because I saw a broader group of personalities, and, you know, people who they expressed a broader masculinity. And some of them were like, really belt and rowdy. Just really, very masculine men. But they had empathy. Mm hmm. And they listened. I mean, they, they were inclined to walk in other people’s shoes to understand. And they wanted people to lead with them, if you will, I mean, it was all the stuff that, you know, I love about women’s leadership, all the reasons why, you know, companies have talked about, you know, having a better bottom line with more women in the executive ranks. And it’s because the, their style of leadership being inclusive, you know, there’s more of a diversity of thought, and, you know, on and on it goes. So I look at the men, and I saw all this, as, I would never say it to them, but it was like, You’re, you’re leading like a woman. And that is like, super cool. And no one would think you were being effeminate at all, right? I mean, that’s, I can’t, I feel like, you know, I, with most audiences, I probably wouldn’t go there. Because I, I don’t. I mean, I’ve had, it’s only one comment or a snarky comment on an article I wrote, for the love of men at work, and those who work with them. And it was about it was while I was doing my research, and I kind of capsulized a couple of examples of men who were, you know, empathetic, and you know, and I had started off the article with the fact that toxic Max masculinity had its fingers all over the, you know, bad male leadership, and that we needed to broaden the definition of mass validity. And oh, by the way, I see that these men that I’m interviewing who are successful leaders, they have expanded that definition. Right? So the snarky comment was yet another female ex, yet another female claiming to be an expert on masculinity. And I was, I mean, the comment, the comment went up, like, within 24 hours after I published the article, of course, I was just like, Oh, my God, my entire life is going to change right now. Because, you know, I’m doing this research, I’m writing this book, and I’m gonna get attacked, I really did worry about this angry response. So that has been something I’ve really balanced. You know, I do. I do. Sam can’t pointing to my book. I do. I do have a chapter that I call, Are you man enough. And it is exploring the pressure that men have grown up with. And I actually use the voices of a couple of men in order to present this, you know, it’s not me telling them it’s, you know, it’s it’s other men telling them? Yeah. I mean, I I, because it was my premise that men have problems leading collaboratively, because they’ve got all these hangups around masculinity. I had to at least address it in some way. Yeah. But I didn’t. You know, I was really careful. I mentioned, you know, I mentioned me to, like, really tiny. Right, because it’s such a broad issue. Yeah. You don’t need to throw, you know, the logs on the fire around sexual assault and all that. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott 14:16:51
Right. And I only I only shared my own story, just so to, to illustrate it. Yeah, absolutely. I’m not one of those people that’s like, let’s serve some gasoline on smart and already burning fire like that. We don’t that’s not productive. So, okay, two questions, if an organization wanted, or when an organization wants to hire you, and Pat, how do they get in touch with you?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:17:18
Um, yes. Probably the easiest way is to go to my author website. Okay. CarolValloneMitchell.com.
Kelly Meerbott 14:17:31
And we’ll put that in the show notes.
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:17:34
You know, that way, because that, that website, the contact flow seems to work better. Our, our company website is we’re talent strategy partners. So it’s, it’s tsphr.com.
Kelly Meerbott 14:17:55
tsphr.com. So anybody who wants a workshop on leading like a woman woman or the collaboration code reader why these are amazing. And, you know, they’ve been on the receiving end of both sides for many years, and are really, really well, I mean, they’re, they’re consummate professionals. So, you know, I highly recommend Carol and Pat, a talent strategy partner. So if I didn’t, you wouldn’t be on here. But um, so definitely reach out, buy her books, both books. Don’t go to Amazon, go to her author website. So she gets more of a
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:18:31
oh, I can go to Yeah, when they go to my my website, there’s a button for Barnes and Noble and a button for Amazon. So, yeah,
Kelly Meerbott 14:18:40
so take your pick by five stars do all of that. So, yes, you have been so generous with me with your time, I’m going to give you a couple of rapid fire questions that we’re going to wrap up. Is that okay? Yep. Okay, because I could sit here and talk to you for hours on this. And hopefully you and Pat will come back at some point and talk to me more about, I am sure what’s going to be another book, hopefully at some point. Because we didn’t get into that process. And I definitely want to talk about that. Actually, let’s do that really quick. So how could they talk to me about the process of writing a book first of all, how long did it take you?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:19:18
Okay, so it took me from for breaking through bitch, I would say it took about six to nine months. Okay. But what I did first, Pat found a consultant who help authors put together a book proposal, and then helped me find we were looking for an agent first, when I didn’t find an agent than we were looking for a publisher. So I found a publisher that way. And in fact, I partnered with her again for collaboration code. and found found an agent. And the agent then shopped the proposal. So you have to write a proposal. And then it’s a wonderful exercise because it makes you crystallize your idea. You have to break it down into chapters, and what each chapter is about. So by the time you’re writing, you’ve got you pretty much have it all there, and you just have to go to each chapter and then write it fleshed out.
Kelly Meerbott 14:20:27
Now, just tell me real quick, why publishing why a house versus self publishing?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:20:35
So for me, you know, as a PhD, right? That that credentials important to be I thought that having a publisher, it’s almost like a peer reviewed article, right? I mean, it’s, it was accepted by a publisher. And so I had that, even though people had said, Well, why don’t you just self publish, you’ll make more more money, which, you know, you don’t make money, right? You really don’t make money on books. But it just, I thought, lended the credibility I wanted. And, you know, I was really thrilled. I have a different publisher now. But I was really thrilled that Simon and Schuster is the distributor from my book, because I’m like, you know, yeah, well, first, I’m like,
Kelly Meerbott 14:21:28
saying, right, it’s
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:21:30
just that. So it’s validation. It’s, you know, credibility with. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott 14:21:39
Yeah. I mean, I was just wondering, because, you know, I’ve been tiptoeing down that path for years and hope. Yes. 2021 will be the year of me writing my book.
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:21:47
Yeah. And there, there are people that self publish, and you know, they have a wonderful marketing machine working with them, right. So it depends on what your goals are. And that’s what a group had told me, I belong to this authoress group. And, and I was torn between going publisher or self publishing, I thought I’d throw the question out there and see what people said. And it really all came down to you need to know what your goals are. And that’s what I realized I needed the validation. For myself,
Kelly Meerbott 14:22:25
I don’t really see it as validation, Carol, I see it as as credibility, like, you know, you are a PhD, you are in academia, you know, having it accepted, as you said, like, by a publishing house, is what you needed at the time. It’s not good, bad or otherwise, that’s just right. Yeah, you know, yeah. And what I hear from you, is that, you know, self publishing is another option. It just wasn’t the option for you. And that’s Yeah,
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:22:50
and it absolutely is. I think people are making that work. Very well. I’ve seen,
Kelly Meerbott 14:22:57
absolutely. Okay, so now the rapid fire questions. Thank you for that. So, okay, first question. Do you have a daily mantra, and if you do, what is it?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:23:09
You know, I don’t have a daily mantra. Okay. I really don’t I just, yeah,
Kelly Meerbott 14:23:16
perfect. That’s rapid rapid fire. Yes or no? So Okay, favorite comfort food?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:23:23
Well, if I’m not worried about carbs that day, I would say I love really good grilled cheese sandwich you know with tomato, right? Cheese all melty. That’s perfect. Yes. If I’m worried about carbs, I make homemade chicken soup. So I really love that.
Kelly Meerbott 14:23:42
Yummy. Okay, so by two things. What books are on your nightstand right now?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:23:49
Yes, well, Adam grants new buck. Think again. Okay is online nightstands. And I’m trying to remember the title of the other one that is there. Because see, I haven’t read them yet. If I were starting to read them, I would remember the title. No. Yeah. But you know, Adams Adams is really he he kind of jumped the queue because his book just came out. And since he, you know, helped me and endorse me. I really want to read this book.
Kelly Meerbott 14:24:19
Oh, that’s so nice. Yeah, it’s nice to have a mind like that in Philly. I mean, we have so many great minds you all these other people that are so fantastic. Okay, so what songs are on your playlist right now?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:24:33
Oh, um, oh, this is this is so hard because I listen to music all the time. And I have a very broad you know, sense of music but one of the songs that keeps playing in my head. And maybe it’s a mantra is The song changes. It’s David Bellway, but it’s features David belly, but it’s done by butterfly Boucher. And it’s the version of changes that was used in one of the Shrek movie soundtracks. Oh, cool. In fact, but, but anyway, it sort of is my theme song at the moment because of collaboration code, you know about this is about change this about culture change. I thought it was really cool to have this woman singing, you know, a man song with the man. So it was like this collaborative effort between a man and a woman. So I would say that, you know, I would cheat and just say that, that that song has kind of come up. In my mind, yeah. And
Kelly Meerbott 14:25:46
it’s definitely not a cheat. Like, it’s just whatever, you know, these are just fun questions, so we can get to know you just a little bit better. Final question. This is really easy. What are you most grateful for in this moment right now?
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:26:02
Right now, I’m, I’m really grateful that I’m in a position where I’ve been working from home for 20 years, but I I can work from home. And, you know, we can survive the pandemic, the way we have. I mean, we’re in we’re, I love our house. I love it even more in the summer when we can use the pool. And anybody who’s who’s talked to me about I mean, that’s where I, that’s where I write, I bring my laptop down to the pool. I need. I mean, being near water is just like my thing here. So. Oh. So I know,
Kelly Meerbott 14:26:49
knocking on your door this summer. Just
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:26:52
Hey, you know, that would be fun. Yeah, you’re not you’re not Narberth is not that far away.
Kelly Meerbott 14:26:58
No, it’s not. And I haven’t you’re in the same house, right, that we were at a couple of years ago.
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:27:03
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s, yeah, it’s it’s a media address, but it’s really kind of in Glen Mills. You know, Chad Ford area. So
Kelly Meerbott 14:27:12
yeah, I love Carol’s house. It’s so warm and welcoming. Like she is I mean, she’s just,
Carol Vallone Mitchell 14:27:17
Oh, yeah. What am I fireplace? I wish you had been able to be at the launch party, because I, you know, it was a virtual launch party, but I was sitting by the fireplace with the fire on and it was fun. It was just like, yeah, I wanted it to be festive. Oh, well, I’m
Kelly Meerbott 14:27:36
glad and I’m sorry, I missed that. But you know, I’m always a big supporter of yours. So, of course, Carol, thank you so much for being here of being vulnerable, real opening these things up and sharing them with us and to our listeners. It’s our intention with this podcast, that it inspires you to go out and have authentic conversations to deepen the connections in your life. Thank you all and make it a great day.
14:28:18
You’ve been listening to hidden human, the stories behind the business leader. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Kelly and the services she provides. Visit you loud and clear.com Thanks so much for listening, and we’ll be back soon with a new episode.[/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/toggle][/toggles][/vc_column][/vc_row]
