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[/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][divider line_type=”Full Width Line” line_thickness=”1″ divider_color=”default” animate=”yes” delay=”50″][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row type=”in_container” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” scene_position=”center” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” row_border_radius=”none” row_border_radius_applies=”bg” overlay_strength=”0.3″ gradient_direction=”left_to_right” shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column_text]Dr. Danna Bodenheimer, LCSW, is the founder of Walnut Psychotherapy Center, and the executive director of the Walnut Wellness Fund. A teacher, author, consultant, supervisor, and businessperson, Danna is above all else a therapist at heart. She lives in Philadelphia with her wife and two children.
Danna graduated from Smith College, earning her bachelor’s degree in Women’s Studies. After wholeheartedly planning on attending a Ph.D. program in psychology, going so far as to get her post-baccalaureate degree in psychology from Columbia University, Danna discovered the intricate beauty and possibility that social work offers. Turning down psychology programs to receive her MSW from Smith College, and returning to her educational roots in Northampton, Danna found her clinical self. After completing two internships in Philadelphia, one in a partial day treatment program and another at a school for psychoanalysis, Danna began her career at the Tuttleman Counseling Center at Temple University.
Three years later, while in the middle of her doctoral studies at the University of Pennsylvania, where she received her DSW, Danna began a teaching career and her own private practice. She has taught at Rutgers, Temple, the University of Pennsylvania, and Bryn Mawr’s Graduate School of Social Work and Social Research.
In 2015, Danna founded Walnut Psychotherapy Center to address the need for long-term trauma-informed psychotherapy for the LGBTQ community. The practice took off, and is now a leader in Philadelphia for its work supporting LGBTQ mental health. Danna’s newest project is the Walnut Wellness Fund, a 501(c)3 nonprofit dedicated to providing financial support to LGBTQ people seeking mental health treatment. Learn more about her work here: www.walnutwellnessfund.com.
Danna received the 2011-2012 Award for Excellence in Teaching from the University of Pennsylvania. She was also selected as a fellow for the American Psychoanalytic Association for 2012-2013. In 2018, she was a semi-finalist for Philadelphia Magazine’s Health Hero Award for her work with the LGBTQ community at Walnut Psychotherapy Center. She is the author of Real World Clinical Social Work: Find Your Voice and Find Your Way and On Clinical Social Work: Mediations and Truths From the Field (The New Social Worker Press).
[/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row type=”full_width_background” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” scene_position=”center” top_padding=”0″ bottom_padding=”7%” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” row_border_radius=”none” row_border_radius_applies=”bg” class=”custom-p” overlay_strength=”0.3″ gradient_direction=”left_to_right” shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none” shape_type=””][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”left-right” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][toggles style=”default”][toggle color=”Default” title=”Episode Transcription”][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”padding-3-percent” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column_text]Intro: Welcome to Hidden Human. The podcast where we explore the stories behind the business leader, get ready to hear insights from business leaders, speaking candidly about how they became who they are today and the lessons they learned along the way. And now here’s your host leadership coach and speaker Kelly Meerbott
Kelly Meerbott: Welcome to the space where we reveal our personal humanity to reconnect with our shared humanity. Let’s begin our conversation with one of my favorite people in the whole wide world, the servant leader, the brilliant woman, Dr. Danna Bodenheimer, founder of Walnut Wellness Center and Walnut Psychotherapy. How are you?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Good. How are you? Kelly?
Kelly Meerbott: Good. Good, good. I’m so glad to have you. I never say anything I don’t mean, so having you on, especially at this time during COVID, I really love to talk to you, Danna, like after we get to know your story, which I know that, you know, your mom had a big impact on you, but, I really love to talk to you about, you know, protecting her mental health in COVID, without numbing out those really key qualities that we need to survive the compassion, the empathy, and love. So can we get to that in a little bit? Is that okay with you?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I’m on board with whatever works for you? Okay.
Kelly Meerbott: So you knew from a really young age that you were meant for this work, correct?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I went in and out of knowing it over time. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott: So how young were you when it first presented itself? Like, you know, typically I, you know, from psychology between the ages of eight and 14 are really crucial years, so did it manifest itself at that point?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I mean, yeah, I think I wrote like, like one of my first thesis papers, whatever you call them, when you first write your first three paragraph essay on the analysis of dreams and comparing Freud and Carl Jung, when I was like 12, it was always, I was always interested in symbolism and, like what sort of going behind this, going on behind the scenes and somebody’s psyche? I don’t know that I knew that it would turn into a job cause it felt like such a fundamental part of who I was that I thought a job would be a separate entity. And then I think at some point I realized that this could all be like one in the same and that like work wouldn’t feel like work. Right. Right. Exactly.
Kelly Meerbott: So were you reading Carl Jung and you know, all these other great psychological minds at age 12?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I was reading Freud at 12. Partly because I was put into therapy by my parents. I was like 10 and the therapist would interpret things through Freud’s theories. So it would be like part of the reason you’re so worried about this happening is because of wish fulfillment. And I would be like, okay, I guess I have to look up wish fulfillment and would like research what that meant, which was that you secretly wanted the thing you’re most scared of to happen. And so, yeah, I started orienting myself to this theory really, really early on, which is basically just that there’s an unconscious at work and that we like kind of have to be suspicious and careful about that all the time.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Yeah. So if, do you mind me asking why you were put into therapy age 12?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Yeah, I think it was well, however old you are in fifth grade. So like I was 10 in fifth grade. Yeah, me too. Okay. So the summer before fifth grade, I started to experience like some really serious anxiety. And I had always had a decent level of anxiety, but it was like controlling me and defining me. And so I think my parents were like, yeah, we need help with this. I specifically think my mother was like that. I don’t know that my father thought that as clearly, my mother was put into therapy at a really young age. So it sort of feels like the intergenerational transmission of clinical treatment because they were sort of taught that like, that’s the solution. And honestly, for me, it really was like, I got a lot better working with,
Kelly Meerbott: Was there ever a stigma around therapy in your house? Danna because like, so my grandfather, my mother’s father was an internist and we didn’t that stigma of therapy being shameful wasn’t present in my reality. And I don’t, I’m wondering if, because of this intergenerational kind of path and the dots that you’re connecting, was there anything like that?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Yeah, I mean, my father would not step foot in therapy is absolutely against it. I think the same was true for my grandmother who was his mother and a Holocaust survivor and was like, you don’t just go and sit and open up your insides. Like that’s not what we do. And I felt like I couldn’t tell my peers cause there was nothing normalized among fifth graders about mental health treatment. So I, I had this big secret, like what I did on Wednesdays and why I would have to miss softball or whatever activity I was engaged in. It was like Dan had goes somewhere Wednesdays. But internally I didn’t feel stigma about it internally. I was like, this is cool. I really like going and mostly we played Scrabble. So it’s hard to know what the mechanism of wellness really was, which is part of what I’m so fascinated by. So
Kelly Meerbott: Who won the Scrabble games? You were the therapist.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I think I mostly won because she really let me chea and she let me like sit with the dictionary open. So there was like a real tenderness to how she played with me. But she didn’t, she didn’t sit it out either.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So do you believe, okay, so let’s fast forward to 2020, I’m assuming you and I are right around the same age, right? Like, so I’m 44. I was born in seventies. Okay. So do you think 2020 that stigma about therapy still exists?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I think it’s like a really geographically specific answering more about that. I think it’s more normalized in urban areas. I do think it’s becoming more normalized among adolescents and in college years, I also think there’s huge communities where it is absolutely frowned upon unacceptable. So, and I don’t know, what’s the predictor of that. Like I really don’t know what informs, if somebody is allowed to talk to somebody else about their feelings or not and why that would become like so irredeemable and certain,
Kelly Meerbott: Do you see that most prevalent in today?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I think it’s really hard for people in the military to get yeah. I agree with you to access their mental health care and to have mental health struggles, no matter how hard the military has tried to normalize that you might have PTSD as an outcome of the military. There’s not really an understanding that you might go into the military because of your own stressors and history. It’s like, it can only be the outcome of it. It can’t be what brought you to it. So I think there’s a lot of stigma while on duty, like actively I think that it’s largely informed religiously culturally and that there’s communities who have every right to distrust mental health practitioners as well and are like, that would be a really dangerous choice to go sit and tell somebody everything. Sure. Like if you think about the Soprano’s Oh yeah. Like, you know, Tony went through therapy without ever saying who he was to his therapist. Right. And yeah, I think that there was a total fear about losing his masculinity and being perceived as, so we get leadership and mental health treatment. People don’t understand, like actually have to go together. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott: And I agree with you on the military, my husband did 20 years in the military and you, you had no way of knowing this or maybe I told you, I don’t remember, but I have a contract where I’m coaching several high level leaders in a branch of the military. I can’t tell you which one it is. I can tell you it’s, it’s a bunch of officers that are all taking over larger commands. And the way that the contract was positioned to me was, Oh, well, the military is realizing that they’re active duty and veteran service members are killing themselves at alarming rates. So we need to pay attention to their emotional wellbeing, which I was sort of like, and you’re shaking your head. And of course, you know, being front row to my husband’s career. But what I’m seeing in my work with them is that the definition of context, emotional well-being or emotional intelligence or empathy is completely inaccurate.
Like, I’ll give you an example. So I was on one of my calls on a zoom call with one of them, we’re talking about how he likes to lead. And he was saying, you know, I like to step in other people’s shoes. And I really like to see something from another person’s point of view, as close as I possibly can. We kept talking and he brought up some situation and I said, you need to pull on your empathy more. And he went like this well wall. And I said, timeout, what does that mean? And he said, you’re expecting me to go in there and cry. And I said, no, I said, let’s go back to the beginning of our conversation.
You said you like to lead by stepping into other people’s shoes. That’s so, anyway, and leading from that place. And but what it made me realize is they don’t understand what the true definition of empathy is. They don’t, they don’t know, you know, yet there are some leaders out there. Like I was told that when General Patraeus was in charge, right. He expected, especially people like, you know, these countries that we’re going into, he wanted them to have their weapons easily accessible, but sort of hidden and to take off of the flag check-ins and take off of the scary, like attire and get down to the level of the kids and the people, and really kind of ingratiate yourself. And what he found through that leadership was that the community would rise up to help them, or they would start policing themselves. So I think, you know, especially in leadership, understanding emotional wellbeing and mental health is so important, you know, especially with the PTSD and, and the other things that come as a result of being in the military, or I’ll give you an example of my husband.
Like, he didn’t know what he was going to do with his life. And he was graduating from high school. So he went into the military, he was 17 years old, his mother in, he had no direction. And now he’s got like three degrees he’s, you know, used to used his GI bill to go to culinary school and is now an amazing chef. So I think there are ways you can leverage the tools in the military, but you have to be really unarmored up. I don’t know. And I guess that’s a segue to say how in those situations, let’s say military, let’s use combat since that’s where we’re at. How do you remain emotionally? Well, mentally tough resilient, still have that grit without numbing out the empathy, compassion and love. How do you do that?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I mean, I don’t know that you should. I mean, I think if you’re in a situation like that, then the values that you’re engaging in are questionable, right? Like if you’re in a situation where you need to override your emotional instincts and your empathy, to the point where they’re gone and you can’t access them, then there’s a morality question at play.
Kelly Meerbott: Right. So how, I mean, do you think those two, let’s just say two qualities can coexist mental toughness and empathy and compassion, empathy,
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: And compassion, our mental toughness. I think they’re the hardest things to feel. I love that. And I think you can be in the military with a tremendous amount of vulnerability and empathy and thoughtfulness, right? This is, this is a sector that’s designed to protect humanity. It’s, you know, it’s a human job. That’s about like creating organization and structure where there’s chaos and trying to bring peace. Like, that’s the goal. So I don’t, I don’t think that feeling things is a weakness. I think it’s a strength. I think the military has come to think that you can override emotion and that’s how you build an army.
Kelly Meerbott: Right. And, and I don’t, I don’t know that you don’t then end up with an army of people who are really, really suffering, which is what they’re finding, which is why this process is in place now, you know what I mean? That they’re, they are recognizing that it took them a little bit longer than we would want, but we’re, we’re there now. And we’re having these discussions, which is great. Because I think it makes for better service members, if they do feel those feelings. And I think from working with a lot of these leaders, they are vulnerable and they do like, they don’t see feelings as the F word, you know, at least after we’ve worked together. There is this beautiful, full awakening when they realize that it can be a strength and it can be part of the tools in their toolbox that they can pull out and leverage for the greater good. Okay, All of us are exhausted. Let’s be honest, we’re all exhausted.
Right. And I talk about this all the time. So one of the things I was talking about with my psychiatrist, like, and I told you, and Doug, this before I got on was like that, I was kind of feeling emotionally low, you know, like my cup was feeling low. I said to him, I don’t, I don’t feel good. And he said, you’re not supposed to. And of course, sarcastically, I said, well, that’s how I pay you for helping me out here. And he basically holding the middle is great right now. And then be real gentle with yourself, just hold the middle. So I just, I guess that’s a long way of asking you, first of all, how, how are you maintaining your mental, emotional health? How are you protecting that? Because I know you have two beautiful children and incredible wife, incredible spouse, and I know that you pour into all of them. So how do you do that and support your patients? And I’m not just asking for our audience, I’m asking for me because of the work I do too. Like any tips and tricks that you have that we can kind of share with everybody listening, that’ll help them make it through to the end.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I mean, I wish I could pretend that I had any tips or tricks. I don’t think that we have any idea what’s going on for our internal systems in terms of how dysregulated we are and like how exhausting it is to tolerate this level of dysregulation. I feel like the number one strategy I’ve employed is to tolerate that I’m functioning with a lower baseline, right? Yeah. So before what I used to have the capacity to do, I don’t know. I just don’t like, I can’t keep up with who I was before. Everything started to sort of come apart, you know, and I’m not saying it wasn’t coming apart before COVID-19 this really revealed in a mask, so many things. So for me, I’m like, you know what? You just can’t do everything you used to do. Right. Or do you have to, right.
Like that was a construct to begin with. So I think so powerful that you said that yeah. Like, like you don’t have to exercise five times a week and that was a fiction. You could exercise twice a week. And in fact, if you get there, once that’s still a lot and, and all of these things were just ideas and I am allowed to have new ideas about like what success is and what functionality is, and to incorporate being tired into that and being sad into that. Like I basically anticipate every night that I’m going to crash a little like that I’m going to experience at least like a real hour of sadness. And because I am like, I know that’s going to happen at this point. I don’t feel like I’m like messing up. I’m just letting it in. I’m just integrating it and I’m absorbing it. There’s a lot to take in. And like, it takes a toll, but sodas trying to not do that.
Kelly Meerbott: Right. That’s exactly right. And you know, I’m not a parent, so I always defer to parents on, on this subject. And, you know, I have friends and colleagues that have young kids, like one of them told me that his son is an introvert, an extrovert. And he’s noticing that his five-year old you know, what, actually, it’s his grandson, five-year-old grandson is losing that spark, you know? Whereas his introvert introverted, like grandkids are loving this, right. So how can you best be there for your kid? Like what, you know, and then if there is behavioral outbursts, which I’m hearing that a lot from parents, how do you best handle it? Because again, they’re little kids that they can’t put this into context, you know what I mean? So how do you, okay, here’s a better way to ask it. How do you bring your kids comfort and relief in this, in this environment?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Right. So my kids are nine and 12 and they’re both really smart and know every single thing that’s going on. So there’s no protecting them. And, and I do think that the effort to protect them would be a myth anyway, cause like we really can’t protect them. Their school’s not open, right? Like, like the world has completely just shifted in every way that they had understood it. We just keep revisiting that our family makes the safest decisions. We can, that we take care of each other and we take care of our animals. And like, that’s the goal, you know, is just to keep continuing our commitment to each other and to the health of others, by not perpetuating risk, taking serious risks and like being as responsible as citizens as we can be. And I think they find meaning in that, right? Like that they’re doing something by staying home. They’re helping.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. That’s, you know, that’s really powerful is to put it in that framework for them. Like you’re helping, you know, that’s, that’s I always get really frustrated when I hear about wearing a mask as a political statement. Cause I don’t see it that way. Well, cause it’s not that way. No, it’s not that way at all. I mean, I sleep right. So my best friend, Marcy cuddle, who, you know, from soul, she was diagnosed last year was non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. In April she went into remission and last August and like, I don’t want to be the one of course, you know what I mean? I’m out if I go to the store and I see an older person, like, you know, I mean social distance and mask and you know, to put it in the context back that it’s not about us, it’s about the greater good, you know, I, I think that’s really powerful and I think that’s something kids get because you know, let’s break all of this down and, and, you know, I mean, I was thinking over yesterday of all the things that have gone on since March, whether it’s COVID or the assassination of George, George Floyd, or, you know, the economic downturn, you know, I mean on and on and on.
And then of course I’m going to, I’m going to canonize her St. Ruth Bader Ginsburg passing. I mean, that, that, for me, Danna, when I heard that, like, I haven’t really cried at all during this, because I think I’ve been distracting with whether it’s work or projects or, you know, whatever. But I felt like I, I cried from a very, very primal place when she passed. And it’s still like the fact that I’m, I’m not crying right now. It was amazing. But I just I guess I’m looking for some comfort and relief from you. I don’t know. I mean,
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: For me, like when Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, I was devastated. I also burst out in tears and that’s unusual for me to have that quick of an emotional response. And at the same time, there’s relief for me in the fact that she died. And that is because an entire society riding on a cancerous pancreas of an 87 year old woman is inherently a real injustice that I feel like I was participating in like, wow, he deserved privacy. She deserved to feel like she could die without society collapsing around her. She deserved to feel like we weren’t living on the edge. And like she knew we were, and she was trying to hold up the whole world, which is what so many women do. And it’s like so unfair to bear that burden. And I feel like her resting in peace calls to action like that we should not be in this place, that everything rides on one person that women’s right to choose is dependent on whether or not somebody does or does not some come to cancer. That is always, almost always a fatal cancer. She’s also 87. Like she lived this tremendous life and her brain was sharp and amazing through the entire thing. And she never got to just be like, I want to rest. And I feel like there’s so much about the loss of her that feels instructive about the labor we need to be doing in our generation and the generations below us about how, like, we can’t let it get to this place where the whole system is as vulnerable as it has become.
Kelly Meerbott: Say more about that, because I mean, this is one of the major reasons why I love you cause you click things into place for me, like, Oh yeah. And I’ll tell you what it’s done for me is it’s, it’s made me realize my purpose. Like I didn’t realize that. I’m, I’m not trying to say this carefully and I know you’ll get what I’m saying is that between her and Brene Brown are my guideposts right now. And you somewhat also, you know, I hear a lot of your voice in my head sometimes about things that I struggle with. And the thing I love about the three of you is not only that you’re powerful women, but you have this gentle way of expressing the truth. That just goes right to the core of the issue. And there’s this quote that I keep playing in my head from that was — Irritation, annoyance is not going to further your way to persuade. So it really shifted the way I’m talking to people, especially people who have a thought process that is completely polar opposite of mine. You know, because I realized that, you know, I always preach, I don’t want to live in an echo chamber, you know what I mean? But that’s what I was doing. So now it’s, it’s really about how do I gently awaken somebody by my example, you know, with a powerful, gentle way of calling them forward, not calling them out. So, you know, just from reflecting on that statement about calling people forward, what are your thoughts on that and how do you do that?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I mean, I feel like Ruth Bader Ginsburg got where she got with the philosophy, which is basically what you’re sharing that like you get more bees with honey. And I think that that is one way to be, and I don’t know that it’s the only way to be. I don’t, I don’t think that she was a radical thinker and I don’t think she wanted to disrupt the system. I think she wanted to maintain equality in the system as it exists to the best of her ability. And I think that I identify as more radical than her and love her. Like both are really, really true. And part of me is like, we’re not getting anywhere with a Supreme court that has lifetime appointments that are chosen by presidents who were illegitimately elected. Like this system is broken, it’s broken on every level. So trying to hold it together via the life of one person is like totally insane.
It feels that way to me, the way that, I mean, you’re asking how I call people in. And I guess I one subscribe to the idea that you can’t call everybody in because you have a limited number of internal resources that you have to be economic with. And so there’s people who can’t come in, they just can’t like, you’re talking about Brene Brown. And I like her quite a bit. I also have read Glennon Doyle. Who’s like, you can’t cross the moat unless you’re crossing with love, you know? Yeah. And I do think we have a responsibility to protect ourselves from like the toxicity of those who cannot move. Yep. And so I do, I think a big part of our work is to truly inaccurately assess the capacity of the people in our life and like one more time. So I think a big part of our work is to truly and accurately assess the capacity of the people in our lives. Like, so can I move this person? Is this person moveable? Is this person open and vulnerable? Can I be open and vulnerable with them? Um, there any chance to like for this light to match, strike whatever. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Is it the spark? Yeah, absolutely. That happen and like where
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: It can’t, it can’t right. Like it just can’t. And there’s a lot of places where it can, so I try to invest my energy. Like for example, I’m, I’m really interested in talking about how queerness impacts mental health. Right. Let’s talk about that. But if I’m just going to go to a group of people who already are homophobic or don’t subscribe to mental health, I’m not going to start talking about the intersection between queerness and mental health. Right. Right. Like you need to be starting somewhere where progress can happen. So I wish I remembered your exact question, but it was sort of like, what do I think about Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s philosophy? It was about
Kelly Meerbott: Like how in your work do you call people forward?
The point like, and this is what I subscribed to. As soon as I can instinctively see that people are shut down, I tap out and I go too low. How does your, how is your, how are your kids, you know, like to the surface, you know, but really like, cause I’m not having conversations to everybody like this, you know what I mean? Because they’re not everybody is capable or ready to hold that space to just have that kind of civil dialogue, you know, it’s just, and that’s okay. There’s no judgment to that. And I think what you’re saying is really economize your energy, where you can make the most impact.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I think that’s true. I think it’s also fair to tolerate where you can’t take risks because like something inside of you is too vulnerable or relationships feel so sparse right now that you’re like, can I really be in conflict with somebody who I, who I talk to every day? Like, do I, can I, can I take a risk like that? I do think it’s important to take risks. And I think it’s also important to preserve things that really are sustaining us right now. So like, like I have a friend for example, who posted something on Facebook that I was like, Oh, that really doesn’t feel okay. And like said to my wife, like that really doesn’t feel okay. And we agreed, like it didn’t feel okay and we didn’t call her in. And I think in some ways that’s because it’s like, we are that tired. And there’s a level of expectation that I don’t know that we can fairly hold ourselves to right now.
Kelly Meerbott: Well, yeah. And I think going back to your analogy of like working out five to seven times a week versus twice, you know, and just knowing what your capacity is, you know, like I said, if I’m, if I’m in a conversation where somebody is completely shut down and shut off and closed off, I know that, and I’m not going to go, like you said, you’re not going to walk into a room with a bunch of homophobic people and talk about the intersectionality of queerness. Like you’re not, you know, just like, I’m not going to talk to a bunch of white supremacists about racism, white supremacy. Like I’m just not going to do that because their minds are made up and they’re locked and loaded in that, that, but if I have somebody who’s intellectually curious or like these 25 military leaders that I’m telling you about, you know, where at the end of five and a half hours with me, they’re like, Oh, it is okay for me to ask people how you’re feeling like they’ve gotten to that Mindshift then that really is where, like my impact is going to be felt the most because now I’ve got the leader, who’s leading a thousand people and if their mind is right, it’s going to trickle down.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I hope so. Yeah. I mean, I, I think impact is possible. I also think you’re talking about extreme labor on your part. Oh yeah. That like needs to be reimbursed. And I know it is being reimbursed. I understand that. But like, I think there’s sort of this encouragement, like let’s just hand out our for free right now to make everything right. And I don’t think we should be doing that. This is an actual, I know you’re not, his is real work and like it’s a commodity, that’s the product of your internal labor, your education, how much self-reflection you’ve done. And like, people just don’t get to have that right. Without like really respecting well, and I think,
Kelly Meerbott: I mean, for me, at least I can speak to me and I love to hear your thoughts on this for me. When COVID started. And I mean, I’m an introvert at heart, which people don’t believe, but I I’m, I’m an introvert and things drain me really easily is that I’ve really put in boundaries and to your point, assessing the people that are in my life and what’s really what COVID has done. And I always go back to the word crisis. The root of the Greek word crisis is, is the Greek for, to sift. So I believe that this crisis has sifted out what’s authentic or who those people like, maybe I had a group of acquaintances like this, and now it’s gone down to my three best friends and Brian, you know, and then the next outer circle that was really large includes you and Rachel Bennion.
And like those people that are, that have appeared in the middle of the sifting. Like if you know what I mean, you know, those people that you really like hanging out with, but you’re always the one doing the outreach or you’re the one, you know, whereas for me, at least at this age, I want a mutually beneficial relationship in every area of my life. And I want depth to them, you know, and if you’re really not capable of that, that, and that’s okay, there’s no judgment. It’s just, you don’t belong in those circles of mine. I used to think that was bad and judgmental, but what I realized is it’s, it’s a mode of survival, you know, really.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Yeah. I mean, I think that COVID has been an editorial process for all of us. Yeah. And like a real unmasking of fact and fiction and fantasy and reality. Also it was like, so what’s enough for you to live with. And it turns out like so much less than we had imagined, right? Like, yeah. Like my hobbies since COVID started as the spelling bee and the New York times, and I’m like, that is literally where I’m driving my joy from cost $3 a week. It’s not a big deal. Right. But it’s like, I start every day just sifting through letters and like, it grounds me. And I think that like, there’s a, there’s been a real refinement socially, personally, professionally that that’s been required of us because of how much energy it’s taking just to survive this and how much decision fatigue there is on a daily basis. Just like if you go to the supermarket and like, what aisle you feel safe going down?
Well, I haven’t been hanging in my car. I have my, my car now. It’s no, it’s not a habit for me. And it’s not a habit for me cause I hate it. I absolutely hate it. I hate that. I cannot see people’s full faces and I feel really sad. And so like, I don’t like going out like I don’t like being exposed to the way that the world has changed because there’s so much grief there. But I also just wanted to go back to you saying that you’re an introvert because I don’t know if you’re an introvert or if you’re actually just like a really highly sensitive person, you know, they’re called HSPs.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, I, yeah. And I think I’m both you know according to Myers-Briggs, I’m an, I think I N F P I don’t know, I’ve taken it many times, but yeah. I am a highly sensitive person. Yeah.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: And like right now being a highly sensitive person is like, like having a raw nerve that’s just exposed at all times because there’s so much stuff for me.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. And I’ll tell you what’s helped me Danna. And you know, I did this on August 20th when Brian and I took two weeks off, just again, the microphone. Sorry. When Brian and I decided to take two weeks off starting August 20th, I deleted my email and all social media off my phone and I have not put it back on. Oh, interesting. And I’ve really limited, like, you know, running a business, especially with email, it’s like, you know, for awhile it felt, I was like, Oh my God, what if I miss something? Right. It’s been really, I actually that I feel like I’ve cut the choke chain on the electronic leash, which is really good. It just really helped. And I’ll tell you with the vacation, the other benefit of COVID is every rest stop that I’ve ever been in has been like sparkling clean, you know, stocked with hand sanitizers, stocked with soap.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: It’s almost like this is what we should have been doing all along. Right. Yeah. So but yeah, I mean, I think cutting myself off from social media, especially after watching the social dilemma, which, you know, with you having kids in that tween sort of age group, it, it, it’s really fascinating to me what’s going on with that group around social media, you know, and how there, and you’ll have to watch it, but there’s this statistic in there that says that a lot of like 13 to 15 year olds are getting plastic surgery to match that what their filters look like. And I’m like, Whoa, that hell man. So, I mean, let’s talk about that. You know, kids in social media, how do you handle that with your kids and how do you, how you recommend your, your clients to manage it in their lives with their children?
I mean, I want to be really honest about my answer to that question, which is like, I don’t feel like I have a relationship with social media that’s under control. Okay. And I just want to be honest about that. Like, I love that. Like I have to wake up every morning and read every single thing on Twitter before I can get out of bed. And I fall asleep with the same volume of content and part partly that’s a trauma response to being like, how much, how much information can I possibly have to feel like I have control over the situation and the chains that you’re talking about having broken our addictions of mine. Like I don’t have the energy to break those right now. And part of what’s going on with my kids is that the only stimulation they have is their screens. You know?
And so it’s like, there’s so much shaming about like the one resource we have to feel connected. You shouldn’t be using too much because it’s not good for you. Right. And because it’s like part of a larger conspiracy, which I’m sure that it is, and I am positive that I’m being bought and sold because if I said right now, like I want to go shopping for pillows. An advertisement for pillows will come on Instagram. Cause I am being spied on. I understand that. It’s just like, I’m trying to tolerate my own humanity and the humanity of my children too. And it’s like, I don’t know that either of them use social media in a way that’s toxic. And I can not pretend that they use it in a way that’s healthy, nor that I have the parental resources to model it. Because like there’s a limitation to who I am. And so like they see me on it.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Well, and I think going back to what you were saying before as being it’s about being gentle with yourself, you know, and, and maybe right now in the environment that we’re in a little over use of social media, we can let that slide until things get wherever they’re supposed to go.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I mean, I think it’s a trauma response because
Kelly Meerbott: Tell me more about that. When you say that, what do you mean? Like put it into words that a six year old child can understand, will you say trauma response? Okay.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: When I say trauma response, what I mean is something scary happened and I don’t understand it and I need to collect as much information as I possibly can to try to understand it. And I think that maybe if there’s a piece of information I can get, I will finally understand it and then I’ll feel calmer. Okay. So it’s like the, the need to collect information as a trauma response, as an effort to like regulate a dysregulated system that is like a wash and not knowing God. So I, the way I self-sooth is like, I’m going to collect as much information as I possibly can to feel like I have a sense of mastery over what is completely actually out of control.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. I’m, I’m laughing because I just realized that I’ve been having a trauma response around our current president, because rightly lately I’ve been devouring books about him. I’m like, I don’t understand this. Like, Oh my
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: God, if you got it, then what would happen?
Kelly Meerbott: Right. Or like, and what’s been happening with me. So in the last two weeks, I’ve read Mary Trump’s book, Michael Cohen’s book and I’m nose deep in Bob Woodward’s book. And of course we’re watching the Comey Rule on Showtime. And I’m like, I don’t understand this. Like, here’s the book with all the proof? Why is he not arrested? Like, you know, and then right now, mob Woodward is braking, which if you don’t know anything about his book, it’s based on seven 17 interviews with, with Trump, just for those people who don’t know. So, they’re breaking down the Mueller report and they’re like, the big underlying thing is you cannot convict a sitting president, mf a crime. And, one of the things Michael Cohen said at the end of his book is the ultimate goal of this president is to pardon himself. Yes. So, of course like now, now that you’re saying all this, I’m like, yeah, of course it’s a trauma response. Cause I’m just sitting here going, okay. I despise this person so much, but why, why? Like, and I put it on myself. I was like, you can’t snap judge somebody. Because again, I don’t want to live in an echo chamber. I don’t want to be one sided. I want to make sure I look at everything from another angle. And now there’s not really another angle there.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: That’s a really gaslighting thing to do to yourself. Right? Like there is morality and there is right and wrong and there’s immorality happening when you lie to an entire country about an illness that can kill them. There’s nothing, there’s no, both sides to that. Yeah. And I think that like what you’re doing by reading all those books is studying up on your abuser. Right? Like, you’re like, if I can know everything about the person I’m feeling abused and bullied and manipulated by industry-wide by maybe I can gain some power. And even if I don’t start to understand him, maybe I can understand that people who support him and I’ll be safer from them.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you, it’s interesting because you know, I don’t know if you watched the debates. I watched the debates
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Prior
Kelly Meerbott: To the debates, like two seconds into hearing his voice. I would have to shut it. Like I couldn’t this time I watched all the debates and I’m like, yeah, look, he’s playing out that behavior and that behavior and that behavior. And there’s that because his whole philosophy in life shocking is attack, attack, attack, deny, deny, deny, like that’s his philosophy in life in business. He learned it from his father, like all of this stuff. So, you know, you’re right. It’s like sitting there going, okay. Yeah. I predicted that because I know all of this about
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Right. So you’re like, you have this fantasy that you’ve achieved mastery because you finally get it. And like he’s still might, he’s still might steal the election from you and you still might lose control over what decisions to make with your body because he abused his power. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott: I know. I know. Trust me. I know on this, but that’s, it’s a very interesting angle. Cause I was like, because my husband looked at me, he was like, everybody’s saying, he’s an . Like you met him. I met him in 2004. I knew it from that, from that moment, there was something not right about it. You know, I knew just from the highly sensitive person, I am, I could sense it. And you can just sense it with those kinds of people, those predatory people, you, they have like this vibe about them. And I said, I just want to be able to, somebody comes at me be educated, but really it’s not that it’s the trauma response. Okay.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer:
Yeah. Yes. And it’s like, I totally appreciate your effort to be educated. I do the same thing. I want to know everything. And like, you can’t catch me not knowing anything, but also like you don’t have to layer on all these defenses to justify what you know is wrong. Right. Like it’s just wrong.
Kelly Meerbott: Well, and that’s, that’s what I was about to say earlier was I think let’s just like take a whole step back. Let’s hover it like 30,000 feet over this whole thing. And I believe if you break it all down, it’s about oppression versus, or oppressor versus oppressed good versus evil wrong versus right. Like I think that’s what it’s all about. Nothing like take away the politics, take away the structures. That’s what it’s about
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: That we are in a fight for, for saving our souls.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. For saving our souls for good versus evil. I think this is a big universal game that’s going on. Yeah. You know, I have my computer sitting on this book called Caste. I don’t know.
Kelly Meerbott: Oh my gosh, I have it in, I have an audible. That’s my next book to read.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: So her hypothesis in it is that there’s this year coming. I don’t remember exactly what it is. Like, let’s just say it’s 20, 38, her where white people will no longer be the majority in America. And that basically there’s like an unconscious that we’re going to be losing the power that comes with being the majority. And then all of this is an acting out of the terror and fear that comes from that power loss that’s coming. And, and, and that Trump is a response to Obama. Like it’s really about the foundations of white supremacy in this country. And, and, and it holding on for dear life with this guy.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. 100%. I couldn’t agree with you more. In fact. So I’m speaking for SHRM, their national conference in a couple of weeks and we’re talking about Sherman’s Oh, sorry. Society of human resource management. So I’m speaking at their conference inclusion 2020 on October 21st. And the talk, my, my talk is called Nurturing Belonging: Awakening to Your Role of Diversity, Equity & Inclusion, and my speaking agent and I, Nicole Anderson. And why we’re talking. And she’s like, when you talk about this, the biggest fear that comes up around white people, and I know this because I’ve felt it myself is, Oh, you’re, I’m losing something. Yes. I will be deprived. Right. I’m going to be deprived. And in my mind, and I, I know we’ve talked about this, that’s a scarcity mentality, right. That’s not true. It’s, it’s a made up construct. Right.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: It might be true though. And that’s okay too. Yeah. But I, I, I think white people can lose things and still survive.
Kelly Meerbott: Well, and that’s what I’m saying is that there, I can tell you in my world, like I try to include everybody, you know, that I’ve even walked away from contracts that are worth the right fit for me in favor of other people, because I knew they were the right fit. And, and I can tell you from living proof and running this business almost 12 years, that there’s enough business for everybody. There’s enough out there to go around. There is no lack. The problem is that the distribution of resources is inequitable and the access to the resources and things is inequitable. And for me, that’s just, it’s not fair for me. It’s a fair thing. It’s like, why do I, because I look like this get treated differently than my, you know, black, Indian, Hispanic LatinX you know, insert in my minority there.
Why is my access different? Why? Because I’m white. Like that’s, to me that’s not right again, right. Versus wrong, oppressed versus oppressor, good versus evil. That’s the way I’m seeing this. You know? And, and I think it’s our responsibility. And I say this to people straight out, we built the system as a white culture. It’s our job to dismantle it. And the only way we can do that is probably first acknowledging that there’s a problem. And then talking about it and figuring out how take action to fix it. Right. but like you said, I think it’s that fear of, Oh my God, if I give up something to Danna, that means I’ve lost it.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Right. And I think part of what we’ve done wrong in the, in the discourse around dismantling is saying, you, you won’t lose it. I don’t know if that’s true. Like, I think there does have to be a redistribution of resources and it might impact the way that white people experience privilege and quality of life. Right. And it’s because less people would be working for them. Right. And like, I think that it’s like, we want to reassure people that everything would feel just fine. And I’m not sure that it will, but I’m sure that it doesn’t now. Yeah. And it’s going to be like a whole, I mean, I hope, I don’t know that this will ever change honestly, but like I do think talking about it as piece, a piece of the work, but like white people are not going to be unscathed by racial equity. Like it might hurt and it should cause it’s a big deal that we’ve done this this whole time.
Kelly Meerbott: Amen. Amen sister. Okay. So we’re almost at time. And there’s one last question I want to get into before I do the rapid fire questions. And thank you so much for your openness, your vulnerability, your amazing heart. And want to make sure that we let people know how to get in touch with you because she’d want to be healed. This is the woman to go to everybody. Just I’ll tell you that. So my last question for you, Dana is years from now, when your great, great, great, great grandchildren are listening to this. What do you, what kind of wisdom would you want to impart to them from the lessons you’ve learned since March, 2020?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: I mean, I think the biggest lesson is like, it’s okay to feel things. And just because you’re scared, doesn’t mean that you’re unsafe. Those are two different things. You can be scared and still be safe. And that like we’re all connected and like there’s nothing more powerful than that message from COVID right. Like completely not discerning in terms of, of its interest as a virus, which is just to spread. And so like my face mask is your face mask is my kid’s face mask. And like, if we can’t commit to that, like we’ll never function again. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott: You’re amazing. Sister. I love you so much. Okay. So rapid fire questions. So these are fun. Okay. All right. You ready? Yeah. Okay. Favorite comfort food pesto. Yes. Yes. Okay.
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: With pasta, like it has to be on pasta. Okay. What kind of pasta? You know, I really don’t care, but like it does well with angel hair. I think it needs to have some fresh mozzarella with it and pine nuts.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know, what I love is the spirals they really catch the pesto. Yeah. Okay. what books are on your nightstand right now besides caste?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Caste is on my nightstand. I have this book heavy right here is a memoir by a genius named Keesee layman who talks about the way that black bodies are traumatized living in white, in a white world. And particularly have his body has been traumatized and his sense of worth has been traumatized. I have this other book right here, which is called, I hope we choose love. It’s a trans girls notes from the end of the world. And somebody’s talking about like, kind of putting down their porcupine quills in order to connect in a world where everything has told her to put them up. Yeah. So I’m just trying to think about like harm and love and reading about both.
Kelly Meerbott: 100%. Okay. Last question. What songs are on your playlist right now?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: Oh, right. My playlist. So I’m trying to think what songs are actually on my playlist right now. I don’t feel like I’ve been listening to much music. I did have to request Castle on a Hill by Ed Sheeran the other day, of course. And that was a real joy. No, like it’s at the last song. Oh God. Yeah. Go home. Yeah. Oh, you call it a go home. Okay. Oh, is Praying by Kesha always Shallow by Lady Gaga. I love my ladies’ voices. Yes, of course. Are we loving Lizzo at all? I’m not a huge fan and I have no explanation for that. It’s just like, has never really stuck for me. I love meatloaf. Like I love the album bat out of hell. Who does it? A lot of people. Don’t a lot of people don’t like it real popular. I, I love it. I am the only one in my house. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott: Well that’s because you’ll do anything for love. Yes. But you won’t do that.
So for anybody who’s listening, how do people get in touch with you, Danna for your amazing team?
Dr. Danna Bodenheimer: So I’m the founder and director of the Walnut psychotherapy center. And the website is www.walnutpsychotherapycenter.com. We also have a Facebook page that anybody can just like and follow, and I post a good amount on really just in an effort to elevate, to elevate the voices of others. I don’t really post my thoughts, but it Feels really good to use it as a platform. Okay. and I have an email address, which is dbodenheimer@gmail.com.
Kelly Meerbott: If anybody wants to talk more and we’ll put that, we’ll put that in our notes and make sure that people can get ahold of you because you know, I, you, you’re just getting a teeny taste of how powerful Danna is. And if you have the honor and privilege of working with her, do it, absolutely do it. So, you know, in closing it’s Danna and my hope that you go out have authentic conversations to deepen the connections in your life. We’re so grateful that you spent time with us today and keep, keep your head up, stay connected, love yourself and make it a great day.
Outro: You’ve been listening to hidden human, the stories behind the business leader. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes to learn more about Kelly and the services she provides. Visit you loud and clear.com. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back soon with a new episode.[/vc_column_text][vc_column_text][/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/toggle][/toggles][/vc_column][/vc_row]
