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[/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][divider line_type=”Full Width Line” line_thickness=”1″ divider_color=”default” animate=”yes” delay=”50″][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row type=”in_container” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” scene_position=”center” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” overlay_strength=”0.3″ shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_link_target=”_self” column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” overlay_strength=”0.3″ column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” overlay_strength=”0.3″ column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column_text]Jennifer Brown, speaker, author, and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting, joins the program to discuss the experiences she had growing up which led her to the work she does today, helping organizations to create cultures of belonging where everyone can thrive. Discover the importance of self-care while advocating for diversity and inclusion, and how we can use our advantages to help others.[/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row type=”full_width_background” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” scene_position=”center” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” top_padding=”0″ bottom_padding=”7%” class=”custom-p” overlay_strength=”0.3″ shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none” shape_type=””][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_position=”left-right” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_link_target=”_self” column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” overlay_strength=”0.3″ column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][toggles style=”default”][toggle color=”Default” title=”Episode Transcription”][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”padding-3-percent” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” overlay_strength=”0.3″ column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column_text]Speaker 1:
Welcome to Hidden Human, the podcast where we explore the stories behind the business leader. Get ready to hear insights from business leaders speaking candidly about how they became who they are today and the lessons they learned along the way. And now here’s your host, leadership coach and speaker Kelly Meerbott.
Kelly Meerbott:
Welcome to the space where we reveal our personal humanity to reconnect with our shared humanity. This woman and I have been orbiting each other for quite some time and I actually have the privilege of speaking to her today and I’m so excited that I can introduce Jennifer Brown, author, speaker, CEO and founder of Jennifer Brown Consulting. Jennifer, welcome to Hidden Human. Thank you for being here.
Jennifer Brown:
Thank you Kelly. This is going to be so delicious.
Kelly Meerbott:
I’m so excited. Okay, so pretend I’m a six year old child. Would you explain to me in a way that I can understand exactly what it is that Jennifer Brown consulting does?
Jennifer Brown:
Oh, I love that. Let’s see. I would say that, well, six year old kids know friends, and classrooms, and learning, and teachers, and adults, right?
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
So I would say something about how we want every kid to feel like that classroom and that group experience is one that’s super comfortable and fun and that you can be all of your unique self whatever that means. Like your favorite things. You can bring them. You can talk about them. You will be celebrated and like that you will have a voice in that room that is however much voice you want. So I think that it would be a message around like how each of us, even our child versions of ourselves, sadly learns about exclusion at a pretty young age in some form or fashion. And my goal would be to say I don’t want that ever to be a feeling that you have, number one, and that holds you back from being all that you are. Whoever you are, whatever gender you identify as, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Is that a six year old version?
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown:
I don’t have human kids. So I might not have done that.
Kelly Meerbott:
No, I think you did a beautiful job on that. And of course now my mind goes back to … I have a very vivid imagination. So I was imagining young Jennifer in a classroom. Like how young were you when you actually experienced exclusion? And I’m looking between the ages of eight and 14 because there was always kind of that defining moment for us.
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah, that’s true. I certainly wasn’t out that young. Right?
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
And honestly I was such a privileged kid.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
It’s pretty hard to find and locate like that moment.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
I did switch schools a fair amount and I would say I just was constantly felt like I didn’t fit in.
Kelly Meerbott:
Okay.
Jennifer Brown:
Either because I was probably kind of a nerdy kid and wanted to be a cool kid, which is a common … Thank God, I’ll tell you, my mom switched school. She was like, “Nope, you’re changing schools.” Junior year in high school, which was really rough, but actually she saved me because she switched me to a school where it was small classes and the teachers could kind of watch me carefully because I was the kind of kid that really needed direction.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
And I was able to flourish and be the geeky kid that I didn’t feel I could be in this like giant public high school that was literally like a John Hughes movie. I mean I went to a high school like 16 Candles.
Kelly Meerbott:
Oh my gosh. Where did you go to high school?
Jennifer Brown:
It was called Newport Harbor High School and that’s in Orange County, California.
Kelly Meerbott:
Oh wow. Okay.
Jennifer Brown:
And there’s so much bad behavior. I can’t even. And I was just not equipped to deal with it and I was the kind of kid that rather than sort of marching to my own drummer, I just got kind of caught up in it and didn’t have that strong sense of self yet. So, but once I was put into a different environment I could thrive. Like it was just, it was right for me and thank goodness and it sort of redirected got me back on track. And that began, I think, a more productive part of my teenage year.
Kelly Meerbott:
Sure. Sure.
Jennifer Brown:
So yeah.
Kelly Meerbott:
What did mom and dad do for a living?
Jennifer Brown:
Oh my mom was a fourth grade teacher but then a stay at home mom.
Kelly Meerbott:
Okay.
Jennifer Brown:
So she was a huge girl scout leader when we were young. She was literally like running us all over the place. Like trying to make sure we were doing our piano lessons, and church, and choir, and dance, and Bible study and just really like was a very … She’s a taskmaster but very strict but had high expectations. And I think that has definitely behooved me into adulthood. My dad was a physician. He also had a huge role in sort of pushing me to achieve. And so they were, I was a first born and so there was a lot of pressure on me.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown:
A lot to achieve.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
I’ve been exploring that in therapy for many years.
Kelly Meerbott:
Your therapist and my therapist should go to lunch because I’m a firstborn too. And it’s crazy. Like where does that pressure come from? I always wonder that. Is it things that we observe and we think we’ve got to learn from our parents or is it something that we’re like, “Okay, we get this because we behave like this,” and that’s the conditioning?
Jennifer Brown:
That’s a good question. I think for me, I was a people pleaser and I think my parents sensed that they could like literally push me around. And so I participated in that and I wanted to be a good kid. And so I think I rebelled here and there. And it’s funny, my rebellion kind of came out in these really weird ways because I think I was trying to chart my own course, but that was not happening.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah. Give me an example of that.
Jennifer Brown:
Oh gosh. I got sent to the principal sometimes in grade school, which is odd for such a teacher’s pet and like such a overall really good kid. I did these like really just weird things. I hesitate to tell the story because it’s so odd, but I really wanted to perform like badly as a kid and so I always was looking for opportunities to get in front of audiences and be that teacher’s pet. I had this like huge need for approval from the authority figure, but I also just wanted to be in the front of the room, I think from a really early age. And so I was always angling to do stuff and one time I literally … I led a program for the lower grades for Christmas.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
It was a Christmas musical program and I was musical and got really excited. And then I sort of, I was like … I don’t know how to describe this but I literally took another kids opportunity to lead their program in their classroom that they’d been assigned.
Kelly Meerbott:
Okay.
Jennifer Brown:
And it’s just really odd. Like most kids break the rules by like … not like doing more work and like trying to do more work but like I think I was this like geeky kid that like wanted the platform.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown:
And so I didn’t do the right thing. I took somebody else’s opportunity because I wanted it so much and I got sent to the principal, but I think it’s interesting looking back that I think yes it was rude and unkind. It also though is a really interesting data point for me that I was dying to kind of be bigger and literally would have made that kind of decision, wrong decision, to be selfish about something only because like I wanted that opportunity on stage. So like it’s just funny. Like it’s an insight into me that I think is interesting now given what I do for a living.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown:
But of course it was just that it was an odd choice. So definitely I was restless. I think I wanted more. I think I felt bigger things were in store, but I sort of came out backwards and not in the most kind way, but we don’t know why we do these things when we’re young and then we laugh about it when we are older.
Kelly Meerbott:
Well, yeah. I mean and for me, I see it as a lesson and a blessing. You know what I mean?
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott:
You had to have that moment because you just weren’t in this kind of mindset of, “Oh, just me.” And then you realize that your behavior affects other people, which I think is great. I mean, I watched your Ted talk and I know you were musical and it’s about finding your voice. So maybe that moment where you got sent the principal, which by the way, we’ll talk about that in a second. My husband and I were both sent to the principal for this weird thing and I’ll tell you about it in a second. But having that moment where you “felt like you were unkind,” or excluded somebody, or took an opportunity away. To me that’s like the foundation of what you do now in the opposite direction.
Jennifer Brown:
Exactly. And yes, maybe it was meant to happen. It’s funny. I had only thought about like being ashamed of that story and I’ve never actually told it publicly, but there are [inaudible 00:09:27] it.
Kelly Meerbott:
I feel that, but it’s-
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah. I’m embarrassed about it. I mean, why would a kid … why would I have done something like that? Like me. Knowing me now.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
And yet this want to be seen so strong for me. I can remember it as a very young girl, like I loved … Even as like five, six, seven year old, I love to be on stage.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
It was like really kind of … it’s kind of odd. I mean I think it’s unusual, but even the younger version of ourselves I think tells us who we’re going to be someday.
Kelly Meerbott:
Well, you literally encapsulate it in a beautiful way, which I have not been able to articulate in almost 30 episodes of this podcast that, that’s exactly what this is about. It’s like looking at what happened in our childhood to create the leader we are today. And for me, and I don’t know if you subscribe to this belief Jennifer, but I feel like the universe, God, whatever you believe in, whatever your higher power is, puts us in a certain amount of pain in order to get us to shift. And I could tell there was some shame behind this, but for me it’s like you had to have, as you call it, that data point in order to feel that and go, “Oh, that’s what that feels like. I don’t ever want to do that to somebody again.” And how can I be the catalyst so that people across the world … because you are a world changer, can never feel that and feel included.
Jennifer Brown:
Hear our story. And for me to feel so unseen is also really interesting. That I-
Kelly Meerbott:
It is interesting.
Jennifer Brown:
I would break the rules to be seen.
Kelly Meerbott:
Oh sure.
Jennifer Brown:
Not wow, like … And I had the privilege to what was the worst that could happen?
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
Like there wasn’t a real penalty. I mean it’s embarrassing to get sent to the principal but like … And that’s where the privilege kicks in. When I break the rules I don’t end up in jail. I don’t … Right? I’m watching When They See Us and it’s [crosstalk 00:11:11]-
Kelly Meerbott:
Oh my God. Okay.
Jennifer Brown:
Oh gosh.
Kelly Meerbott:
We have to get into this. Okay. Because Doug and I were talking about this before because 2019 is the year of, and I’m not making this all about me, but I really do want to get your insight on this because I think that there are a lot of people, white people specifically, who struggle with this. So I chose 2019 is the year to dismantle my ego and dismantle whatever residual racism was inside me. Now I work in diversity inclusion, however, I think we all have a certain amount of racism and white privilege that we need to look at. And it’s our job as the white culture to do the work. And I have to thank my friend Aurora Archer for putting me in with the book White Fragility and like she had me watch When They See Us. And it took me five days to get through the first episode. And what I was saying to Doug is that the first part of this year, Jennifer, I was so angry. I was so angry. One because I was white and that this has been perpetuated by our culture.
Kelly Meerbott:
And two, the shame and blame that come up from it. And I guess my question in that long tirade really is how do you do the work that we need to do with diversity and inclusion without being angry and outraged all the time.
Jennifer Brown:
Right. And that gets to I think self care, right? Doug and I have done a lot of episodes on self care. You’re right because all of us need to do that. Some of us are being traumatized for the first time in a way.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
Like learning our complicity in a system that has served us more than others.
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
That leads to anger at the system. For me, anger at the system, deep sadness, deep like shame about my country’s history, this country’s history, and questioning of everything I’ve always held to be true. And I do think we’re in a massive reckoning right now on the white side of the equation, like the reading the books that are coming out. I watched Chelsea Handler’s documentary.
Kelly Meerbott:
Oh, wasn’t that a powerful?
Jennifer Brown:
Fascinating. Yeah. Yes.
Kelly Meerbott:
I mean-
Jennifer Brown:
She’s just starting on her journey.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
And there’s a lot of feelings about that documentary, but I thought, I was like, “This is where white people are.” Like we are at the very beginning of like our truth journey for some of us. Right? I think the vast majority of us are not on the journey yet at all and I’m not sure people ever will be. I don’t know.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
I’m going to try my best to get us all on the journey because we have to. We have to look at our history with a critical eye. We’ve got to look at how discrimination is baked into and racism is baked into our day to day existence and the way companies are structured. I mean you can kind of … But I inhabit this really interesting place because I’ve got to bring this message to a largely corporate environment and package it in a way that pushes people but doesn’t push them away because I’ve got to keep them listening to me and I’ve got to keep them in the conversation. That’s the most important thing. So what I spend my time thinking about is I have my own learning that I’m doing and my own sadness and anger and frustration and aha moments and questioning of my life and my choices and how I grew up and what does it all mean.
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
And I have to figure out like, “Okay. I might be sort of sprinting through the learning, but like how then do I back up and give it audiences that have done nothing of this.” Sometimes I’m even the first time that they’ve ever heard a speaker say the word white on stage. Right? True.
Kelly Meerbott:
It’s so interesting because I wasn’t thinking about I’ve got to keep them engaged. It was more me like yelling at people.
Jennifer Brown:
Like WTF.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott:
Well you can say what the fuck on this podcast.
Jennifer Brown:
Oh good.
Kelly Meerbott:
But more I find myself going, like I said to my friend Aurora, once you see it, you can’t unsee it.
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott:
And there are times when I’m going, why do you not see this? Like how do you not see this?
Jennifer Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kelly Meerbott:
And of course my reaction to Rob and DeAngelo’s book, White Fragility was, “Oh my God, this country was built by white male slave owners, for white male slave owners.” Not for you. Not for me.
Jennifer Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kelly Meerbott:
Not for our sisters and brothers of color. Not any of that. And I think it was really, for me, if you haven’t watched the documentary Free Meek there’s this moment where Michael Ruben, who’s the owner of the 76er’s says, “Oh my God, there are two Americas.” And that was what it was for me. It was like, “Holy shit, this stuff is really going on.”
Jennifer Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kelly Meerbott:
And either I haven’t seen it, or I haven’t chosen to see it, or I’ve seen it and I ignored it. And that’s really where that kind of shame and stuff that I have to work on myself internally before I can even say, listen, you need to hire somebody like Jennifer Brown or talk to our good friend Amber Hikes over at the ACLU. These are powerful people that are navigating this space that will help you do it. And I think for me, my reaction was like, you’re an idiot instead of, “Okay, you’re not on the same place on the journey as I am, let’s talk about this together.”
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah. Yeah. It depends what role you have because you can’t yell at your clients.
Kelly Meerbott:
No.
Jennifer Brown:
You can’t yell and scream.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah. I wasn’t yelling at my clients. I was yelling at people in the street.
Jennifer Brown:
In the street. Nice. That’s a good luck.
Kelly Meerbott:
Classy, Kelly. Really classy.
Jennifer Brown:
Really classy.
Kelly Meerbott:
And that’s not the way to go about it.
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah, it’s hard. I mean, I’m always a consultant. And in consulting, like the first rule is meet your client where they’re at.
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
And embedded in that is that you aren’t where they’re at, but you need to put yourself where they’re at.
Kelly Meerbott:
Exactly.
Jennifer Brown:
So it’s like I’m having two different conversations.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
I’m having one of my own journey of allyship and advocacy and like making sure I’m doing everything I possibly can. And then there’s the other lens, which is and then how can I go back in my own journey and remember where I was when I first discovered this, first read about it, first realized it and sort of how do I then help them accelerate … give them the breadcrumbs and then accelerate them through that because all of this it just was not talked about at all.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
I’m like how did that happen?
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
Our schools, our teachers, our textbooks, our … I existed in a largely white world.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Me too.
Jennifer Brown:
Like into my 20s.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown:
Literally.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
And I don’t know like whose fault that is. Should my parents have made different choices? My parents and I are not politically aligned.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
So a lot of my anger is honestly frustration towards loved ones and it’s very, very difficult. I have to tell you that’s been the most painful thing of it all is the waking up to the way what I was not exposed to, what we didn’t discuss, what I didn’t understand and that fact that even to this day I’m the only one that’s really awake to it and that I’m the only one that’s like is anybody else, you know?
Kelly Meerbott:
Yep. I know exactly where you’re going?
Jennifer Brown:
[crosstalk 00:18:50] on fire?
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah. That actually keeps me up at night a lot because those people that are closest to you and it can be really painful for that little girl as we were talking about earlier to sort of … It’s hard with loved ones to realize you’re in a very different place and reconcile it and figure out like where do you go from there.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
And when your eyes have been opened, then you can’t put the genie back in the bottle. Then you have a lot of other choices about like, what do you talk about and what don’t you talk about? And anyway, I know that I’m literally … I’m sure everybody listening to this as like, “Yep they’re totally like …” Like I don’t speak to these members of my family anymore. And like it’s really a division in our country and I think it’s getting bigger.
Kelly Meerbott:
I was saying to a friend of mine, I said, “I feel like we’re on outrage overload.”
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott:
Like, “Oh, I’m outraged about this.” And while I am not saying that your feelings, your reactions are not valid. I think when we get into that mental ego space of, “Oh I’m outraged,” it shuts down the discussion because we’re so like consumed in this emotional tornado that comes up. And as you were talking about your family members while we’re politically aligned, many of them are not awake to diversity inclusion or being intentional with the language around it. And that’s hard because you’re like, well I thought it was just this one person who was the source of this, but it’s actually all of you.
Jennifer Brown:
Right. And all of us. Like us, my culture, like from the inside. Like to become a change agent from within your people if you will, which is where I’ve gotten to, right? Which is I’ve learned enough about who’s voiceless and who’s like disproportionately impacted.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
And then my job I think now is, as I said in a recent podcast recording, to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. And so I know enough about the afflicted and part of me and my identity is in the afflicted category and part of me is in the comfortable category.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
And so when I think about my intersectionality, to take sort of a Liberty with that word, it’s that I’m this combination of these identities each of which comes with a different opportunity or different need for support. And it’s still like flabbergasts me to meet a male ally as a woman. I’m just so grateful. And you don’t realize how much you need it, how much you crave it, and how much it’s like a bomb for your soul when you meet a man, as a woman, of any ethnicity who’s like looking out for women and who’s really like asking questions and using their platform for good and is a safe place to be, right? As a man in our world where there’s so much toxic masculinity. You realize how hungry you are for that.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
And so I just, that fills my cup, but then I realize like I’m that for other people. Like I’m that person. Like the tables are turned and I’m the one. I’m the white woman on the stage who’s talking about the experience of women of color. And I’m talking about the experience of trans women and trans people and like … So it’s super cool, I think, this place I have sort of been able to articulate finally, which is that like there’s that support I need and that just sort of … That’s my own self care is reminding myself that like there are people that are out there to stand alongside me, or hold my hand, or see me, or advocate for me, or whatever. Like cut through whatever I’m experiencing as somebody who’s in a marginalized identity.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
But then like the reverse is true that like I feel very much like I need to be a student of other identities so that I can make sure that, that’s represented everywhere I go. So I think that it’s interesting to see the responses in the audiences that I talked to because I’ll get people coming up saying, “Thank you for telling my story.”
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown:
Like, “Thank you for using your platform to do that.” And I’m so honored that it made a difference to someone. Like it’s like also a bomb for the soul because I was given all these unearned advantages.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
I was given all these things to be comfortable in life, to be safe in life, have more education than I needed or deserved, to not have violence in my life, to walk through the world and not be … I don’t know, I can be closeted all day if I wanted to be.
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
Right?
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
And so I was just wondering, this whole like phase in our humanity has just left me wondering like how do I pay that forward? Because that was not something that I earned.
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
So that’s, to me, the question. Like what do I do to rebalance what I was given? And I feel that my whole work is rebalancing it. I mean, it’s starting to. I will not achieve it in this lifetime clearly, but like if we had a bunch of people walking around the world that looked at their background and their history in the way that I just described, I think we would see change on a whole different level because we’re putting the burden of the work on the people who are the effected.
Kelly Meerbott:
Oh, exactly. Listening to you, I mean I keep saying yes because that’s exactly where I’m at. And for me, I didn’t know if that was the right place to be.
Jennifer Brown:
It is the right place to be. Yes.
Kelly Meerbott:
And it’s something that I said to Melanie Whelan who’s the CEO of SoulCycle. I said, “The reason I’m not boycotting is for two reasons. One, I’m holding you accountable to the promises you make.”
Jennifer Brown:
Right.
Kelly Meerbott:
“And two, I’m a big believer in second chances, apologies, and starting over.” So I’m not going to … If a friend falls down and bloodies themselves, I’m not going to kick them and run away. I’m going to stay and help them rectify themselves, but for me, I decided a couple of months ago that it’s my job to use this privilege to shine light on racial inequities. And I love the idea of rebalancing because that’s how I felt too. I mean there have been times when people that were given a different vehicle to move through life in, I probably would have been in jail. You know what I mean?
Jennifer Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kelly Meerbott:
Like whether it was being pulled over for drinking a little too much or whatever it was. I, by the grace of God, did not have to experience that, but I know that’s a privilege. I didn’t realize it until this year.
Jennifer Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kelly Meerbott:
I think that’s a huge awakening. And that’s the work right there.
Jennifer Brown:
I mean literally that example is in Chelsea Handler’s documentary. I mean she goes back and sees her old boyfriend and they got in so much trouble together and she never paid the price and she was never the target and he was always the one. And then he ends up in jail for 15 years and she goes on and has this life. And it’s so powerful for her to go back and see him and talk about exactly what you’re saying. I just feel like why do we have to like have like 15 ways to try to generate what at the core is empathy?
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
And beyond empathy first, but also challenging them. This system that is so broken and so unfair that we have benefited from. Like that’s I think that next step of the equity activity, which is like, “Okay. Now I realize I have not just empathy, but I’m moved to action.” And like, here’s my strategic action I’m going to take, and here’s how public I’m going to be, and here’s … I’m going to be sort of a thorn in the side of the system.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yes.
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah. And that’s what we need to see more of. So like in my world, we do the unconscious bias training and everybody’s sort of, not at our training hopefully, but people roll their eyes when the topic comes up. They’re like, “Oh yeah. We’re all being required to do that.” You know?
Kelly Meerbott:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jennifer Brown:
It’s like we’ve got to move from awareness to what is the action that of an ally?
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
What is that action? And not just to get the kudos, not just to where the ally pin, and be able to go to pride. It is literally speaking up, having uncomfortable conversations, calling people hopefully in and not out, but sometimes calling out is what’s needed. But I’d prefer calling in. It sounds like you do too. You might be really angry, but calling in is the invitation to the conversation.
Kelly Meerbott:
Correct.
Jennifer Brown:
Then you don’t generate the shame, and the anger, and the resistance of the calling out process. You have a two way dialogue which is much more productive, but that’s where we got to go. I don’t know if you knew, but I was at the Better Man conference this past week on Friday.
Kelly Meerbott:
No.
Jennifer Brown:
And it was literally like 150 mostly men, some women, taking a full day to explore inclusive behaviors and what’s needed from men as allies. And it was again, talk about one of those things that gives you hope. It was like, “Oh, this conversation is what matters and we have to have this more.”
Kelly Meerbott:
Oh yeah.
Jennifer Brown:
It was neat. It was really, really neat.
Kelly Meerbott:
I mean guys. Men. Calling all men. I mean we need you. I know my husband’s an ally. I’m an ally. I like to say I’m an accomplice instead. [crosstalk 00:28:25]-
Jennifer Brown:
Oh. I love that word. I tried to actually use accomplice instead of ally in my book, but we did some market testing on it and people thought it had to do with a crime like that it was a negative thing. And I was like I’m not sure. I don’t know if the public is ready for that word, but between you and me, I love that word.
Kelly Meerbott:
I love that word too.
Jennifer Brown:
I mean yeah. It has a whole different energy. It’s sort of like, “Hey, like I’m like locking arms with you.” Like we are going to do this together.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yeah.
Jennifer Brown:
It’s not like, “Oh, I’m an ally and like I’m bestowing this gift on you,” or whatever. Depends on who you’re talking to, but language is so powerful. There’s so many different interpretations of all these words. I feel bad for people just on the early part of the journey because I think if you have too many language conversations with them, they start to get overwhelmed like LGBTQIA plus like they just shut down.
Kelly Meerbott:
Right.
Jennifer Brown:
So.
Kelly Meerbott:
Exactly. Oh my gosh. Well, I could continue to talk to you for hours.
Jennifer Brown:
Me to. Thanks for asking about my six year old self. I hadn’t visited her in awhile, so thank you.
Kelly Meerbott:
Well, you know what? Next time I come up to New York we’ll have to meet and have an extended conversation because this is-
Jennifer Brown:
I’d love that.
Kelly Meerbott:
I feel like we’re only scratching the surface here, but I like to end the interviews with three rapid fire questions and I feel like they’re so petty compared to what we’ve been talking about.
Jennifer Brown:
That’s all right.
Kelly Meerbott:
But I am curious about this, so.
Jennifer Brown:
On the lighter side.
Kelly Meerbott:
Okay. On the lighter side. Favorite comfort food?
Jennifer Brown:
Oh my gosh. Cheesy fries.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yum. Okay.
Jennifer Brown:
Yum.
Kelly Meerbott:
Okay. What songs are on your playlist?
Jennifer Brown:
I love jazz, so I’m listening a lot to Robert Glasper.
Kelly Meerbott:
Yes.
Jennifer Brown:
[crosstalk 00:30:10].
Kelly Meerbott:
I love that. Okay. What books are on your nightstand?
Jennifer Brown:
Right now I am reading Minda Harts, The Memo, which is being called rightly so, the lean in for women of color. I highly recommend everybody run out and get it. It’s called The Memo.
Kelly Meerbott:
Awesome. Okay, last question. What are you most grateful for in this moment right now?
Jennifer Brown:
I think my parents are on my mind because of our conversation. And while there’s a lot of therapy that’s been involved, I do believe I was born into the right family because it equipped me to be on those stages and to use this privilege for something. And so I think that it all cosmically is working out, at least for me in this lifetime. And there are many more lifetimes right ahead, but for what I need to do here in this one, I am ready and I have lots of energy and like good health and I’m just going to keep on doing it. So I am grateful. I think we’re all born into the family we need for this lifetime and I think that that was true for me.
Kelly Meerbott:
That’s amazing. Okay.
Jennifer Brown:
Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott:
Jennifer, thank you so much. Thanks for being vulnerable and real. And to our listeners, it’s our intention that this podcast inspires you to go out, be more empathetic, and have authentic conversations to deepen the connections in your life. Thank you so much and make it a great day.
Speaker 1:
You’ve been listening to Hidden Human, the stories behind the business leader. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Kelly and the services she provides, visit youloudandclear.com. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back soon with a new episode.[/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/toggle][/toggles][/vc_column][/vc_row]
