Kindness in Leadership: Karen Walrond on Integrity, Calm, and Joyful Growth

Kelly Meerbott

Hey, y’all, it’s Kelly Meerbott, host of Hidden Human. Today we’re talking to Karen Walrond, author and leadership coach. She shares her journey of embracing authenticity and the power of kindness in leadership. She highlights themes from her book, which is fantastic for any woman who is on the aging journey, because she talks about joyful aging and passion, and she advises new leaders to breathe, listen and serve. So join us in this great conversation. Welcome to the space where we reveal our personal humanity, to reconnect with our shared humanity.

Kelly Meerbott

It is truly my pleasure to get to know this amazing human.

Karen Walrond, author and leadership coach. Welcome to Hidden Human. I have been so excited to talk to you.

Karen Walrond

Oh, I’m thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me. 

Kelly Meerbott  

Forgive me, everybody, Karen and my audience, like I have a little bit of a frog that has taken up residence in the back of my throat. So Karen, you’re a leadership coach, just like me, and you and I both know that this is a calling. So what was it in your soul that called you to do this work? 

Karen Walrond

Oh, gosh, that’s such an interesting question. There were a couple of things, I think all and first of all, my leadership story was primarily in corporate America, primarily in the energy industry right here. I’m in Texas, I’m in Houston, and I was a lawyer and a Chief of Staff for a large Fortune 200 company, really, here in Houston. And because of that, and because it was Texas, and because it was oil, the idea of diversity in the company was pretty much a white man from Texas and a white man from Louisiana, right? Like that was sort of what it looked like. So I was very, you know, I have an engineering degree and a law degree in my background, and so I was very often almost like 99% of the time, the only person who looked like me in a room. 

Kelly Meerbott   

Do you see the shock on my face?

Karen Walrond

Exactly so, and I will tell you that in my younger in my younger years, and so —

Kelly Meerbott

So, last year, right?

Karen Walrond

More like 20 years ago, or so, I would do whatever I could to try to fit in, which was a joke, because no matter what I did, there’s no way I’m ever going to look like a white guy from Texas or a white guy from Louisiana. So, there was sort of — I had an epiphany, probably when I became a general counsel, so basically, the head lawyer for the company I was working for, where I was like, you know, this is exhausting, trying to be whatever the image of a lawyer in oil and gas is supposed to be. 

I’m just going to be me and, you know, kind of hold my breath and see what happens. Right? And it worked great. I mean, obviously it worked great. Because as as soon as you sort of let go of what you think you’re supposed to be and just sort of ground yourself in your intent, ground yourself in your integrity and ground yourself into, you know, just knowing you’re I’m going to be the best version of me that I can be when I show up to work every day. \

Also, also wonderful things start to happen and so, so when I stopped practicing law, and, you know, and started writing books, and I thought, you know, there’s so many people still who go into leadership, who think that they have to be a certain way or behave like whatever the cartoon character of that person supposed to be. And I that was just not my experience. So I think if, if I were going to come up with something. It probably was sort of that realization, that sort of idea that I knew I didn’t look like anybody. 

As a lawyer when I was young, I would travel and negotiate. I did a lot of international deals, and I would travel, you know, all over to Latin America, to Africa, to, you know, all over Europe, a couple times to Asia, and I never looked like what they would expect the lawyer from the home office would look like and, and I found that to actually be a little bit of a advantage, right? Like I had people sort of rock back on their heels, a little bit like, not exactly knowing how to handle, yeah, right, or how to approach me. And that’s actually, that was actually a real comfort. 

So if I could come in and sort of lead with openness and kindness and generosity, but also intelligence and confidence and integrity, you could see them almost relax with me. And that was really saying something, because as a lawyer, obviously. Because we’re in usually contentious situations, right? We’re trying to, you know, negotiate deals, and we’ve got one side and the other side, and it’s all this opportunity to be sort of jackass-y, I guess, you know, and for me to come in and go, Look, we both want the same thing. We want this deal. Let’s tell me how what you won’t need in order to zealously represent your client, and I’ll tell you what I need, and let’s see if we can come to some sort of an agreement here. And it always worked, and it was and it did my career a lot of good to approach it that way.

Kelly Meerbott 

Yeah, it’s, it’s so interesting, because first of all, people underestimate me too, and they think one thing, and I’m like, grab your popcorn, really, because I get underestimated all the time, and it used to make me really upset in my 20s, but now I just giggle. I’m like, okay, yeah, you go with that. You go with that thought. 

But the other thing was that would really resonated with me, with what you said was, first of all, I thought of a fable in my book that I wrote about a colleague of mine, Aurora, who actually is in Texas um, and she used to work with a very, very high level pharma company. And she’s Afro Latina, whip smart, like just the highest levels, right? And she would get these evaluations from HR, where it’s like, you’re great, you’re and at the end, before she would leave, they would say, could you straighten your hair because it’s unruly, sure. And I’m like, excuse me? Again, not shocked, but I’m just like, really. 

So the fable is about a unicorn that is born into a world of unicorns with white straight manes and tails and gold horns. And Aurora was born with a black curly mane and tail and a black Tourmaline horn. And they made her, like, paint it and she would start, she started to die, which is what like I felt like, and I get the sense that you felt like, as we’re chipping off these precious parts of us to contort ourselves into these boxes that were never made by us, but literally sucked our souls. And when I dropped the filter and stopped overthinking things in my coaching, it just exploded.

Karen Walrond

I can’t say that I felt like a part of me was dying, but I felt exhausted, like I was just tired every single day, and work became far more energizing when I just showed up, right? When I just showed up, and there’s a lot, and to be clear, there was a lot of risk in that, right? Because not every organization wants you to show up as your full self, especially when you’re a person of color, especially, and I have to say that a lot of the, I mean, I think the word courage is used a little bit too much, but a lot of the courage to be able to do that had to do with the fact that I also had a track record, right? Like people I had already sort of excelled in what I was doing and how. So if I had a little bit of credit in the bank so I could be, like, I’m just going to be who I am. 

And I think that’s something that happens a lot when I talk to younger people, right? Because I think a longer people are a lot of times will come into an organization and be like, I’m just me, which I think is great and powerful and wonderful, but also there needs to be a little bit of circumspection, like, of understanding who you’re with and who you’re around and that kind of thing, and really sort of develop your track record that allows you to be able like, okay, you know, I bring the goods so I can relax a little bit. 

I’m not saying hide yourself, but I am just saying to sort of be observant of what, of what’s around you and and how things land first, right? Um, at when you’re new to an organization, I think that’s just smart, no matter who you are.

Kelly Meerbott

100%, like, when I’m working with leaders, like, especially if it’s a C suite leader that’s coming into an organization for the first time, it’s like, don’t do anything. Just listen and ask questions. So you know the lay of the land so you know how to move when the players are in and I agree with you. I agree with you, and I think the next generation really has a problem with that, and, and I don’t mean a problem as I take issue, it’s they don’t have the knowledge or experience to know how to kind of navigate that space. But can you share a pivotal moment in your career that significantly shaped your leadership style?

Karen Walrond 

I will say I had a moment that’s coming up for me, and I actually write about it in my book. Yeah, and I don’t know if it’s shaped my leadership style as much as it, it made me double down on it, if that makes sense, right? 

I was working, I was the assistant general counsel at a company, and a person had been hired into the company to represent our offices overseas. And for whatever reason, the CEO, he knew this guy before in a previous position, and when he brought him in, he said, Karen, we need to make sure this guy understands the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which is a law that says you can’t bribe government officials to get business, generally speaking, right, which I thought was a very interesting thing to ask him to be trained on, because no other new person had ever been asked to do that before, and it made me think there’s some history here, right? 

So, we trained him, we had an outside console come in, and we trained him and everything else. And probably six months after, he sent an email out to people talking about how he had just closed this deal, and basically, in the emails showed evidence of how he had completely violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act right, like he had done things that were clearly, clearly to me, illegal, right? And so he was visiting the office, and I called him into my office, and I said, we need to talk about this email. And he got very defensive, got very angry talking about how I didn’t understand how business was done, especially in this country where he was living. 

I remember, at one point he stood up. I was sitting, sitting at my desk, he stood up, and he was a big guy, and he stood over me, and he says, I’m not saying you’re stupid, but you’re certainly acting that way. I remember sort of being really stunned, and of course, like it was funny, because everybody outside of my office had gotten very quiet, like they like we were at this point, there were raised voices, and I remember looking at him and sort of taking a breath and going, okay, I may be stupid, but this is the law, and I’m not going to let this go, right? 

And sort of, we ended up, you know, arguing a little bit more. And then he stormed out of my office and I went straight to the CEO, who was out, and I told his assistant, I’m like, when is he coming in? I need to talk to him, right first thing. And I remember going home. I remember going home to my husband, and I’m from the Caribbean, my background with the Caribbean, and I was like ranting and raving and about how difficult this guy was. And he told me I was stupid and and he said, and I called my dad, who was an executive in energy for a long time, and I’m, I’m like, I can’t believe this man called me stupid. My dad said, put your husband on the phone. 

And he said, Give her some rum. And I was like, well, that’s, that’s, that’s probably not good that my husband and my father colluded to get me drunk, because something really difficult happened at work. But I really, like, I remember, like, sort of calming down and thinking, you know, I was right here, and I was actually really proud of myself, because I didn’t resort to calling him names.

I didn’t resort to any, you know, I really stayed very, very calm, but I also was very, very clear and very unmoving, right? I think that for me, it was really, I was really proud of myself for having really rooted myself in my integrity in that moment. And of course, you know, the CEO backed me up and, and it all turned out fine, but, but it was something that sort of made me double down on, you know, like, no matter what, I’m going to double down on my integrity. Because it’s never, ever the wrong it’s never the wrong thing to do. 

Because even even if my boss had come in and said, well, Karen, that is how the world works, and you’re fired, like, even if he’d said that, I knew I could have walked away feeling like I did the right thing here, even if everything around me — and that was really something that I think, certainly, as a coach, I encourage people to do right like, you just, you know what’s right and wrong. You went to kindergarten like, you know what’s right and wrong. So, so just, just always fall back on that.

Kelly Meerbott 

First of all, I love that story, and I do love the rum thing. I know I gotta take my hat off to dad and your husband, because not to get you drunk, but like, I remember I had one really, really rough day, and I work in the basement of my house, and I commute a long commute, so I’m storming off. Up the stairs, the wooden stairs that are like echoing with every footfall. And it gets to the top of the stairs, my husband hands me a glass of whiskey.

Karen Walrond

I mean, I sometimes, and, you know, it’s so funny, because it was like it was a small shot of rum, and it was, you know, I don’t even think I finished it at the time, but sort of that, the jolt of everybody going, you’re right, calm down, right? Was really sort of a, like, it was like, Okay. Like, if this is happening, I need to take a breath, right? Like, yeah, if people are doing this, it’s time to take a breath, yeah. And that was really, God bless him for both doing that, both good men, yeah.

Kelly Meerbott

I mean, like, I remember that one finger whiskey just kind of rounded the edges. You okay? And I was like, my grandmother always said you can’t fix stupid. And, like, that’s what happened today. Um, you know, but, but here’s the thing, you and I learn. Brains learn in contrast, right? So it’s like they’re showing us who not to be. And what I’m wondering is, because I’ve noticed that you’ve rooted yourself in integrity, which I love. That’s one of my personal values, you know, and I believe we need to live and breathe it every day. So, you know, I’m hearing that from you, and I’m just wondering what your leadership philosophy is, maybe personally and professionally, if it’s different. Mine isn’t, and how has it evolved over time?

Karen Walrond 

Well, I mean, it’s funny you ask that, because this phrase has sort of stuck with me this year, and it’s kind of become my mantra. And it’s that kindness is a power move, and I think I think one, I don’t think people really see that, I think they think of kindness as weakness, which it’s really not. I think in a lot of ways, it’s harder sometimes to be kind. 

The other thing is that I’m not talking about being nice, right? Like I’m talking about having boundaries. I’m talking about being rooted in that, being rooted in integrity. But there’s even, you know, even as this guy was screaming at me, like there was a way to get through that without belittling, without being horrible to him, like I was very, very clear who I was, but I would, I never resorted to the sort of aggression that that he had done. 

So I’m very, and honestly, like, I think of the person that’s coming to mind right now is in The Devil Wears Prada Miranda Priestly. Like, the one thing that I love is she’s an awful person, right, a character, but the one thing that I loved about her, she never raises her voice, and if anything, that she got quieter, right, when she was angry. And I think that there’s really something very powerful in being able to be quiet and calm, especially in heated, heated situations. And so that’s sort of my thing now, and that’s really sort of what I said I’m like, like, you are never going to be wrong to default to kind. And kind doesn’t mean to be a pushover. Kind doesn’t mean kind doesn’t mean, like, capitulating, right? Like it is. 

I am going to continue to treat you with respect. I’m going to continue to treat you as an equal, like a human being, but I’m also going to be very, very firm, and you’re going to always know where I am, and you’re going to know where my boundary is, and I’m going to respect your boundaries, and really sort of being that. So kindness is a power move has become sort of my mantra. I think, in life and in work.

Kelly Meerbott

I love that. And like last night, what I’ve been doing, like lately is, so I have to tell you, I’m I’m one with my problems, like, I know, like, where I need to work. And one of the things that maybe it’s being a woman, maybe it’s growing up in an Italian family where we really loud all the time and in everybody’s business, but —

Karen Walrond 

Caribbean families too, by the way.

Kelly Meerbott

It’s like, you know, my grandmother would make these trays of lasagna for like, six people. And I’m like, Are you feeding all of Italy? Or, like, what are we doing here? But I always feel like I need to have the last word and what I’ve been doing lately, and I’m going to say it’s a gift from COVID, because I got COVID for the first time in March, and it’s like, that COVID brain thing is real, and the way it shows up for me is like, it’s a delay, which is what I’ve wanted my whole life. It was like, so last night, I was thinking, all right, I need to send this email, because I’ve got to have the last word. And what has jumped in my mind is, is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? 

No, no, no, okay, stop ego. You need to sit down. But I was also laughing because my mantra this year has been joy as resistance, and I actually got that from an episode of Brene Brown’s podcast with Gabby Rivera on it in 2020 and I was like, that’s genius, you know, but going back to Miranda Priestly, so I’ve taught my clients this technique called Alpha tonality, and it’s basically what you just described, like a really good she’s a really good version. 

Wednesday on Netflix is a really good version. And the first scene of The Godfather, the original Godfather, is like the perfect version. And what I’ve been doing when people get upset with me, like lately, and it’s usually, isn’t it? Sometimes it’s in coaching sessions, but mostly it’s out in public. I’ll drop my voice down an octave, which, if I do that today, you might not be able to hear me, but I’ll go, are you okay? Who, who didn’t hug you as a child? What can I do to help you? What do you need for me? Do you need a hug, a juice box, or a nap? Do you need me to call you tomorrow, like, what do you need? And usually they’re like, what the hell? Because they don’t know how to respond to it. They expect us to go back at them. And when you don’t it rocks them back on their heels, which is good. It’s a good thing.

Karen Walrond 

Well, you know the other person, as you just said, that the other person that I think of, because she’s in the news all the time, is Kamala Harris right now. Like, do you remember when during the debate with Mike Pence, and she just looked and she went, I’m speaking? Yeah, right. Like, it was like, okay, you know, like, there’s, there’s something about being able to just sort of modulate that is really, really very powerful and and being able to not rise to the bait. Like, to be able to just go, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do this, and I, and it’s all, it’s hard.

Kelly Meerbott 

It is so hard. Oh, my, god.

Karen Walrond

That is why I’m, like, it’s not weakness. It is absolutely strength. 

Kelly Meerbott 

Yeah, no. It’s literally, like, if you ever watch Game of Thrones or house of dragons, like, I literally have Sunfire, like, rising up inside me, and I’ve got to, like, lasso her neck and pull it back. Because, like, I had a guy similar to your situation, but recently, in the last couple of weeks, in a meeting with my clients, C suite, people who literally pitched a tantrum directed at me. And he had done it before, and he slammed his hands down on the table. I was like, so I looked at him and I go… okay. 

What am I going to say to that? Because, you know what’s going to happen if I go back at him. I’m crazy. I’m hysterical. I’m wrong. My tone is too much like all of that. And, yeah, you know, I was thinking about that story that you told me about the guy like coming at you and being wrong. And I’m like women, especially black women, do not have the grace or space to be anything less than gracious, graceful, calm, and it’s not right.

Karen Walrond

Yeah, well, and I mean, I will also say that, you know, I’m not going to say I’m not a yeller, because my daughter would argue with me, but, but I cannot think of a time when I have raised my voice at work. Ever, ever, ever, yeah, and I have been told many times, you’re so angry, you’re so so there’s really no winning in a lot of cases like that anyway, right? Like there really is no winning. 

But I do know that for me, I walk away feeling better about myself if I have, if I have, one, said my truth, but two done it in a calm and moderated way. I always walk away and I’m like, I said what I needed to say, and I didn’t lose my cool. I can live with myself, right? Like I can live with myself. So, like, you know, so even more than whether, I mean, the fact is, people will say what they’re going to say, no matter what, but knowing that you’ve done, you’ve done right by yourself, I think, is a really, really powerful thing. I mean, it’s how you sleep at night, right? 

Kelly Meerbott 

Yeah. I mean, like, You’re so right. I walked away from that situation, like, Sure, go ahead. You get that. That’s fine. Get mad Exactly. And guess what ended up happening? He apologized. 

Karen Walrond 

Of course he did. Yeah, yeah for so check.

Kelly Meerbott  

All right, so I think we’ve already covered the most challenging leadership situation you’ve ever been in, right? Would you say that?

Karen Walrond 

Yeah, for sure. 

Kelly Meerbott  

Okay, so in your perspective, because I get this sense, and maybe I’m wrong, that you are very spiritually aligned, you are very clear, you’re very grounded. You’ve got this beautiful mix of left and right, like badass lawyer and calm, I’m like, I don’t know what your daughter would say, but that’s the way I’m kind of reading it. So what can we talk about a little bit of data and metrics, which is, for me, cool and some of the people in the audience like it. 

In your perspective, what are the key indicators of success?

Karen Walrond 

Oh, wow, that’s so good. Um, what are the key indicators of success? And you’re talking professionally, yeah?

Kelly Meerbott 

Or, let me ask it, a different way of successful leadership, yeah?

Karen Walrond 

So it is. It is not a title, which, because I can certainly think of people who had the title that were atrocious leaders. Um, it’s not the title. I think it is. I think you know, you’re a great leader when people love to work with you. Honestly, right? I mean, people love to work with you whether or not they report to you, or whether or not you report to them, right? 

When I think of the time that I was General Counsel, I had three or four lawyers working for me, and a paralegal. I had a team of about six or seven people that were reporting to me, and I remember, and it was the first time I’d ever had people report to me. And I remember thinking about being very, very careful — that my job was to make the people who worked for me look good, and the people who I reported to look good. 

And if I could do that, if I could make the people who worked for me look good, so that meant sometimes, like Karen, congratulations on growing that, on closing that $40 million thing. Oh, you know what? That was, actually Rick, who did that. He’s a star. I’m so proud of the way he handled that. It was really, really cool. And also to my boss, I’ve really, like, the CEO is asking me to do X, and this is really tough. I’m like, Okay, how can I support you to help you make that easier? 

Like, if all I did was make sure that my boss looked great to his people, and that the people below me looked great to my boss. I looked good, right? Like, like, I looked good. And, of course, people loved working with me because, if, because it was such a service oriented thing that people were like, yeah, we’ll work with Karen. And it was absolutely, again, you know, kindness is a power move, right? Like, so being really kind to that. 

So I think that that’s really it — when people around you really respect you, and really, um, will really do whatever they can for you, because it’s a joy and it’s pleasurable to do that. You’re a leader. I don’t care where you are in the organization that’s done.

Kelly Meerbott  

Sometimes you don’t know you’re having the impact that you’re having like so you know, Cecily Kellogg, who’s amazing and has been with me on and off for since 2010 and you know, I’ve got a great team of mostly female leaders around me. And last year, January 18, to be exact, we lost our five and a half year old golden retriever Lyme disease, and flowers showed up for my team, and it said, “You always ask how we can support you and how you can support us. Now we’ve got you” and I’m tearing up. 

And I was like, I, you know, like when they were having tough times in their lives. Like, you know, I always say it’s, it’s you first, whatever priority you need to do to take care of you first. Like, how can I support you? What obstacles can I move out of your way? You know, and then, and you have that moment, you’re like, Okay, I’m doing something right. That’s awesome.

Karen Walrond 

Yeah, for sure.

Kelly Meerbott  

I love that. So walk us through your decision making process during critical moments, when things are tense?

Karen Walrond   

I think — so there’s a couple of things. One is, how emergent? Is it right? Like if? And I think there’s a difference between, it an emergency, or is it like, sort of a long term issue? That has to be like, there’s a difference, I think. And I think, you know, the first thing to do is just, sort of, well, first, the first thing I always do is take a breath, right? Like I have to, and I’ve learned that is a learned thing is sort of literally take a physical breath, then figure out, what do I know? What am I speculating about? What’s actual fact? What’s actual speculation? And what can, um, what can stem the bleeding, right? 

Like, if it’s an emergent, like, what can we do to sort of STEM the bleeding as we figure out where we’re going to go? Um, so, you know, I, you know, it’s, it’s hard because I can’t think of a specific issue that I would work with. But I think the first thing is always to take a breath. The second is always to figure out what is fact and what is speculation like, what is people just kind of wind winding up, and then figuring out, what can I handle? In the immediacy right now to sort of start to send the bleeding.

I really am pretty proud of the way I act in an emergency. My husband and I are very, very different. He’s the person that can be calm all the time, but can in an emergency, can get a little bit stymied, like, sort of like, like, stuck, yeah, yeah. Or like, like, maybe it’ll just work itself out. 

I’m thinking about Hurricane Harvey. We lost our home in Harvey. Oh my and I remember the water was coming in, the flood water was coming in. And my husband, my daughter, laughs about this all the time. My husband, who’s English, was like, let me go make some tea, right? And the water was coming in. And I’m like, we don’t have time for tea, right? But I’m very, very like, this is what we’re going to do. We need to get everything off the floor. Alex, go pack your clothes, because we’re probably going to have to evacuate. So go pack some like, I’m very, very good. Where the downside is, after the emergency is done, I can still ruminate, right? What if? What if? What if? What’s gonna happen? 

What if this is, and my husband’s very good about, you know, let me get you a rum like, like, he’s like, he’s the one that can be very, very calm. And so emergencies, I tend to be very like, I get very laser focused, right? I get very good focus. So that’s easier for me. It’s when things are fine and I’m constantly still looking for problems, right? Like, well, what if this? And what if this? 

That’s the lawyer in me, right? Like, that’s what we do. What is this? What is it? And, and that’s the, probably the harder thing for me to go, you know what, celebrate a little. Or, you know what, like relax a little, or let’s get into a rhythm. You know that’s that’s tougher for me.

Kelly Meerbott  

Yeah, no, I hear you. And first of all, I’m so sorry about your house. And Harvey, like, we’re fine. We rebuilt. I grew up in South Florida, and, like, I remember, in 2005 hurricane Jean and Francis tore through. And my first house, which was a condo on the 18th floor of a high rise condominium. Wait a lot of wind. Wait for it. My neighbor had hurricane shutters, right? 

But what you don’t know is, after every story above 10, the wind goes up 10 miles an hour, so the wind blew open her shutters, flooded her place, came under the baseboard on a shared wall, and I had to walk up 18 floors. And I remember it was pitch black, and I opened my door, and I can feel the water mid calf, and I’m like, This is not good, okay? And it was like, one of those things, Karen, where I was like, close the door, back out, walk back downstairs. And I was like, there’s no power in the building. There’s nothing I can do right now. 

I’m going to my mom, but it’s tough, like in water. My little old Italian grandmother used to go waters the devil. Like, Yeah, glad to do it right? But, yeah, I’m like, You. I over function in a crisis, but before I ruminate, I collapse. Because I’m like, Do this, do this, do this, do this. And then I don’t realize that I’ve been awake for 16 hours, right? And then I collapse. 

What do you do to continuously develop your leadership and yourself as a human?

Karen Walrond 

As a lawyer, at which my license is still active, I keep my license active. In Texas, you’re required to do continuing education, right, in order to keep your license. So because, I mean, I’ve been a lawyer for 30 years now, as of this year, you know, that’s sort of a thing for me, is like constantly learning. 

So I do, I mean, I do a lot of stuff. I read a lot. I am lucky also as an author, because I write, and and I write nonfiction, right? I write about leadership, and I write about things like that. So it requires a lot of research, just generally speaking. So I do a lot, a lot of reading, conferences, networking. I have a group of friends that we meet with each other to talk through career stuff occasionally, which is great. I call them sort of my war council, um, so I have a network of people that I can bounce ideas off of. 

So really, that’s, you know, it’s harder as an entrepreneur and I don’t have a team like, it’s me, so I don’t get to practice as much hands-on leadership as I would have in the past, right? But certainly a lot of self education, as much as I can. And then I think, you know, I mean, I think as a coach, there’s a certain leadership quality that you have to have as a coach. And as a workshop, like, you know, I do a lot of workshops and sort of, you know. When you’re leading a workshop, there is a certain, even if it’s a microcosm, of what leadership might look like for somebody who actually has people reporting to them, you get to practice and dabble a little bit about what that looks like. So all of those sort of provide me opportunities.

Kelly Meerbott  

I love that, and I love that. You call it the war council. I was like, yeah, oh, so you mentioned your books, and we mentioned that you were an author. What are your books? And obviously work? Where can we find them?

Karen Walrond 

So the first book I wrote, a book many years ago that’s out of print, so I’m not going to talk about that one, but the first book that I will talk about is called The Lightmakers Manifesto, which came out in 2021 how to work for change without losing your job. And it’s about really, it was a really interesting book to write, because I wrote it in 2020 which was, as everybody knows, was sort of a dumpster fire of a year, especially in this country right. There was not only the COVID, but it was, you know, George Floyd and Sandra, like all these things were happening that year. 

But it was a great book for me to write, because I was interviewing a lot of really amazing lightmakers, people who were doing really good things to help save the world. So, so that’s the first book. The most recent book that came out is Radiant Rebellion: Reclaim Aging, Practice Joy, and Raise A Little Hell. And it’s about joyful aging that came out in October.

Kelly Meerbott  

Oh my gosh, I have to get that!

Karen Walrond

I’m very proud of that book. It’s really funny. It’s it’s kind of a little sleeper success. It’s been winning awards and all kinds of really fun stuff, and so, so that’s been a really fun one. And then I’m currently writing a book right now, and the work the title is not quite done yet, but it’s about the joy of being an amateur, of not having to excel, of actually doing things and pursuing things just for the joy of pursuing them, as opposed to monetizing, or for the Instagram or anything else. So that’s the one I’m working on. And you can find all of them pretty much wherever books are sold. But on my website, karenwaldrond.com, you can also find everything there. 

Kelly Meerbott  

Yeah, let’s buy it through Karen. So she, I mean, as a self published person, I understand and like, I love, you know, I saw the light makers manifesto, and I was like, oh, gotta buy that. And then when you were talking about aging with joy, I was like, Yeah, I’m gonna say something that I’ve heard a lot of people on our, well, I’m assuming that we’re the same age group, but, um, menopause sucks.

Karen Walrond  

Yeah, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s so funny about that aging thing, I will tell you. And by the way, you can buy them books anywhere, like I’m not self published. So whatever you buy them is fine. My website just tells you where you can look for them. But, yeah, you know, it’s so funny because I wrote the book Radiant Rebellion, sort of thinking aging is not a big deal, right? 

Like I literally kind of went in thinking, I don’t understand why people are really freaking out about aging. Yeah, menopause sucks, and there’s things like that, but generally speaking. But what I found, of course, was that the world is designed for us to hate aging, because the more we hate aging, and the more we fear aging, the more money we spend, right? And there’s really, it literally has been designed that way. And I go into sort of the history of what it was like when we used to love aging in the 1900s and what changed, and basically what changed was two world wars and a Great Depression, and so the mandatory retirement age came in, right? 

And so like and all of the things that have changed to do that. And so now we are acculturated to despise aging and to constantly shift our focus to what’s negative about aging and and my argument is not to deny that there’s certainly challenges to getting older. That’s, I mean, of course, but also there’s a lot of great gifts and a lot of real joy and we should be spending at least as much time focusing on that as well. And so, so, yeah, so it was fun. It was actually a really fun book to write. I wrote it when I was turning 55. My marriage was turning 20, and my daughter was turning 18, my only child, and graduating and going to college, and everybody was only happy about the 20 year marriage. 

Like, everybody was like, oh, “55 double nickels. Are you okay?” Or, “oh, mama, your daughter’s leaving. Are you okay?” And I was like, No, that was the goal was to get her out of the house, right? Like, the goal was always to get her to college. Like, this is successful. So, um, so, yeah, so I hope you enjoy it. I think it’s really, I think it’s a fun book. I’ve had people tell me that they love that it’s not preachy, and it’s not, um, you know, it’s not like, okay, ditch the hair dye. Like it’s, there’s not, it’s not that. It’s just about, you know, considering another way to approach it. 

Kelly Meerbott  

Well, yeah, and, you know, I was thinking, and you’re right. There are certain things, like, when I turned 48 years ago, I was like, you know, I’ll steal a line from Beyonce. I feel so cozy in my skin, like it’s, you know. And then I started to get really confident and trust my training and trust my gut and like, not overthink or talk myself out of things. It was just, like, if the guts are saying it, we’re going to follow that voice, right? But I, I’m going to have to ask you, like, how I can get one with your signature on it, you know? 

Karen Walrond 

Oh, yeah. Well, actually, there’s, there is a, there is a link on the website that will link you to my local bookstore, and I can, I run over and sign them all the time. So, yes, so that you can say all that awesome.

Kelly Meerbott  

Awesome. Okay, last question, and then we’ll do four rapid fires. Is that okay? 

All right, so what advice would you give to someone who is just starting to take on leadership roles? 

Karen Walrond 

Well, Imean, I think we’ve already talked about it. One is that it’s never wrong to breathe. So take a breath to probably listen more than you speak. I mean, at least at the very first, figure out, and then finally, figure out how you can be a service leader, how you can be of service like I think if you lean into all three of those things, that’s a great way to start, and you’re going to be fine. And also, oh, wait one more. And I would also say, remember that you have already had a lot of success if you’ve gotten into this role, and so you really already have the wisdom within you to figure out how to do it. Just think about the lessons that your successes in the past have brought you there. So I would add that.

Kelly Meerbott  

I love that. Okay, so four rapid fire questions, are you ready? Are you ready? 

Karen Walrond  

Yeah, let’s do it. Well, I don’t know. We’ll see.

Kelly Meerbott  

What is your favorite comfort food? 

Karen Walrond

Well, okay, so I mentioned I’m from the Caribbean. I’m from Trinidad, and we have a food called Pai Lao, and it’s really basically a rice and chicken dish. That’s a stew. And it’s, there’s some, sometimes we add a little pepper to it, but it’s, it’s, it’s actually browned in brown sugar, and then the chicken is brown and brown sugar, and then you add all of these lovely spices and things to it, and then rice, and it’s fantastic. So pay Lao, for sure, as my comfort food,

Kelly Meerbott  

I’m just like, over here drooling, because, you know, I’ve been, I’ve been to the Caribbean a lot, and I love Caribbean food. I mean, like, nice Jamaican food is like, Oh yeah, I love it. It’s so good.

Karen Walrond 

Trinidad is really interesting because we are, probably more than any of the other islands, very multicultural. So we have a very strong, obviously, African, Indian and Chinese population. And our food is sort of a combination. So there’s a lot of curries and a lot of things that are very So, yeah, Trinidadian food, I will tell you. Trinidad has the best Caribbean food. I’m just like, you know, yeah, maybe biased, but there’s a lot of evidence to support me.

Kelly Meerbott  

I love that competition between countries. Like I was talking a couple of episodes ago, I was talking to Desiree Peterkin Bell, my husband’s a teacher in West Philly, and like, seventh and eighth grade. Night, I went and read my fables to them, and I was meeting the kids afterwards, and there was one young man from Liberia, and I could tell he thought I didn’t know where it was. And I was like, Oh yeah, it’s in Africa. And he looks at me like, Okay, wait. Lady like, right. I know what you’re and I said, how’s your jolliff? And he goes, let me tell you, he’s like, our jollif in Liberia is award winning!

Kelly Meerbott

That’s better than Ghana, better than Nigeria.

Kelly Meerbott  

Don’t let any other country tell you otherwise. I said, well, you know, Mr. Meerbott is a former professional chef. You should, you should bring in a recipe. I’ll make it for you. And he goes, I will ask my mother tonight. Yeah, best job ever. I was like, awesome. I stand corrected. Awesome, awesome. 

Okay, what books are on your nightstand?

Karen Walrond   

Oh, golly. This is such a hard question, because I have a stack of books that I probably need to look at. Um, so, okay, so one that I have to read, to be reread, is um. Bill Bryson notes from a small island. He is and he is an American. He’s an American writer, but he lived in England for a long time. Mary to Britt, like I am, Mary to Britt, and he writes travel books and Notes From A Small Island about him traveling all over England. And he’s very funny, and he’s one of my favorite writers. I’ve read all of his books. He wrote, he wrote, he’s written books called Made in America about language in America and how it differs at the evolution of it. He’s really funny, but Notes From A Small Island is on my list to read. I always go back to The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron. I do that a lot. And Self Compassion by Kristin Neff, is one that I’ve just started reading as well, rereading. 

Kelly Meerbott   

Oh yeah, put that on my list. That sounds awesome. Okay, she’s great. 

What songs are on your playlist?

Karen Walrond

Oh, so there’s a couple of playlists that I have. One is for movement. One is for — I’ve just started as part of the research for my new book, doing par. Pottery. So my pottery one, I tend to listen to Trinidadian music, like Soca. Soca is the music of my country, which is sort of soul and Calypso. So I’ve been listening to a lot of Kes the Band lately. I’ve been listening to a lot of Cowboy Carter lately. So a lot of those are on there right now. And, oh, what was one? Oh, Bill Withers. A lovely day. I’ve been listening to a lot lately, like Bill Withers stuff. 

Kelly Meerbott  

Yes, oh my gosh. And I’m gonna check out Kes the Band, because I — 

Karen Walrond

Yeah, that will get you moving. It’s good soul and Calypso. 

Kelly Meerbott  

Are you kidding me? Like I can’t — All right, what are you most grateful for in this moment, right now? 

Karen Walrond

I’m grateful to be here. So let’s start with that. So thank you very much. Um, I’m grateful. My kid is just blowing my mind lately. She’s been, um, this summer, she’s 20, and she has been going to summer camp since she was eight years old, and now she’s on staff, right? So she’s old enough to actually be an employee. So she’s living at the at the campsite, you know, managing all the counselors and everything else, and she’s just having such a great time, I have to tell you, like it is my idea of hell, like I am not a wilderness person at all, right, and I don’t like anything having to do with like bugs and and, and I don’t swim in lakes because gross, like it is literally the opposite of what I I am about. And I love that she’s doing this for herself. And I’m just so grateful that I have a kid who is just willing to serve and willing to, you know, push herself and will, and she’s, I mean, she’s loving. If she dies and goes to heaven, it’ll be, she’ll be at Camp Allen, and she’s just having a great time. And so I’m just so grateful to be able to watch her, like, really thrive. 

Kelly Meerbott    

Yeah, I was, I was laughing because one of my good friends, my best friend, her name is Marcy, and she camps all the time, right?

Karen Walrond

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no.

Kelly Meerbott  

Yeah, that’s like, I’ll do it, but I want everything set up like, I’m not like… One night she went out into the middle of the woods, and there she’s, like, in pouring down rain, and it’s her Tesla, and we set up the tent in the rain. I’m like, go with God, my friend. That is not me. Like, glamping, I will do like, have it set up for me. 

Karen Walrond

I say, tell people, my parents struggled to make me go to college so I didn’t have to sleep on the ground. So the way I figure it, if I’m sleeping on the ground, I am dishonoring my family.

Kelly Meerbott  

So, a really funny, quick story. I went camping in the high desert of Washington State with my husband, and we were on this air mattress, and the air mattress deflated during the night. Of course it did. So that’s what they do. He rolls over, Karen, and I wake up, flying through the air. And I’m like, What is going I was like, I am not doing this ever again. No offense to all you campers. God bless you. I will get an RV and a glamping tent. That’s it.

Karen Walrond

I won’t even do the RV. I have, now I will go hiking with you all day, but I’m going to go stay in a hotel. I’m not, no, I want a structure.

Kelly Meerbott  

Well, sister, I am so grateful. Thank you so much, and thank you to Cecily for bringing you into my life. I am so, so grateful to know you and be alive at the same time you are so if somebody needs to reach out, or wants to reach out, for your work, for your book, for a workshop, just to talk, how do we get you?

Karen Walrond

Oh, for sure, just go to karenwalrond.com or chookaloonks.com, either of those will get you there, but karenwalrond.com is the easiest way. And you’ll find my social media. You’ll find out how to get in touch, hire me to be your coach, how to hire me to be a speaker, all the things. Where to get the books, everything is right there.

Kelly Meerbott 

Can you spell it? Just because I want to make sure people can get to you!

Karen Walrond

Sure it’s just my name — Karen — K, a r e n, W like walrun, A, L, R O, N, D. Karenwalrond.com.

Kelly Meerbott 

Thank you so much for your time, it’s been an honor. 

Karen Walrond

Yeah, it’s been an honor for me too. 

Kelly Meerbott 

I hope we get some time to just connect outside of this, because you’re just a powerhouse.

Karen Walrond

Oh, thank you. Likewise, likewise.

Kelly Meerbott  

 Thank you to our audience for listening. It’s our intention on Hidden Human to inspire you to go out and have authentic conversations, to deepen the connections in your life. Thank you so much for listening, and make it a great day.