Danielle Roberts: I’m good. Thank you so much for having me. How are you?
Kelly Meerbott: Good. I’m good. I’m here with you. So I mean, like, and we get to talk, which is nice. So future work consultant, and anti-career coach. So if I were a six-year-old child, and you are going to try to explain to me in a way I could understand what that means. What is it?
Danielle Roberts: I love that question. So you know, when you’re six years old, and your teachers and your parents ask you, what do you want to be when you grow up? They ask you that question. And then they react to what you say. When you’re six, you say I want to be an astronaut, I want to be a firefighter, I want to be an artist. And the adults in your life, they either say great job, or they say, oh, you know, there might not be any money in that you might want to change your mind. And those decisions inform every step that you take in school, in your career throughout your entire life. Because belonging is a fundamental human need. So the work that I do works to undo all of that programming we’ve been taught about what success and happiness look like, and make sure that it aligns with who we are and our unique values and the impact that we want to make in the world.
Kelly Meerbott: I was thinking about when I was six, and I knew what I wanted to be, I wanted to be a large animal vet. And the goal was to have a stable with a horse, like a different horse I could ride every day of the week. And I remember, I’m not going to call them out because I just don’t want to cause myself any problems. There were several relatives that were like, you know, that it takes a lot of math and science and that’s really not your strong suit, and blah blah blah blah blah. And when you talk about it informing you, it really does because you and I both know that psychology says by the time you’re six, your personality is set. Right? Well, who’s surrounding you at six? It’s its parents, your teachers. Yep, yep, yep. So I love the undoing part, right? Because I feel like I’ve been in a constant state of unlearning. How did you get to that point where you’re like, it’s the conditioning. It’s the mindset shift that I really need to unravel?
Danielle Roberts: Yeah, that was a decade-long question that it took for me to answer. And it started when I was 23. Prior to that I had been a high achiever in school, graduated second in my high school class, graduated Summa Cum Laude with both of my degrees in school while running clubs while working three jobs. I always stacked my plate a mile high, wanted to climb the corporate ladder. My first job in an agency, I was working in Philadelphia, and I got a call from my mom that said, she wasn’t feeling well. And nine weeks later, she had passed away from cancer. And I had three days of bereavement leave, found myself back at my desk, and I was just like, everything is operating like normal. Like I didn’t just go through the most traumatic loss. And I’m just supposed to jump back in and put a mask on and pretend everything’s okay. So that’s kind of what started the mindset shift. And I said, You know what, maybe it’s just the container, this box that I’m in, an agency life that’s known for not great work-life balance. So I said, I’m gonna find a job closer to home closer to my dad. And it was perfect on paper. Four years into that, massive issues with toxic leadership. So I said, Alright, maybe I just need something that’s remote, so I’m not exposed to this toxicity all the time. Did that again, made that switch, and then worked my ass off throughout the entire pandemic, just to get laid off right after. And at that point, I had moved 1000 miles away from all of my friends and family one month before. So I was in a new spot, no support system, no paycheck. And I was like, well, now what? I’ve been just like, jumping from box to box thinking that something in my environment would change. Maybe it’s something within me that I need to change. Maybe I’ve been chasing this dream job that doesn’t actually exist. And I need to change my relationship with work. So that is how my mindset really changed over the course of a decade.
Kelly Meerbott: I’m literally choking back tears because I don’t think I ever heard this story in that framework. And let me just say I’m so sorry for your loss.
Danielle Roberts: Thank you.
Kelly Meerbott: I don’t know if you can hear this now, or but just put it in your pocket when you’re ready for it. But I always believe death is just a change of address. Right? So if you could imagine your mom’s looking down on you, do you think she’s proud of you? And how do you know?
Danielle Roberts: Absolutely, because I talk to her every day. And I feel her with me every single day. If you told me that a year after she died, I would be like, kick rocks. But now, it’s like, I actually look to her for guidance. And I was like, trying to access my inner knowing through conversations with her. So I know, I know that she would be proud.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, I mean, I agree. I agree. And to be fully transparent, Danielle not only works on our website, but she’s a member of our cohort. And we work on things together as well. So I knew your mom had passed. And, you know, we’ve talked about spirituality. And I really, really, really talk to my grandparents all the time. You know, my grandmother, who passed away January 1, 2016, she said, when I transition, or when I go to heaven, you’re gonna know it’s me, because I’m going to be pinching your ear. Okay, I don’t know what that means. But all right, Graham. But yeah. And going back to the corporate piece, so I remember I had two defining moments in corporate and I’m not going to mention the corporation, you can research it. I’ve said it before, but they distribute this podcast. So I am not going to poke the bear right now until we get millions of listeners. So I remember sitting in and I’m sure you probably had these meetings, too. I remember sitting in a hotel conference room, no windows, halogen lights. And they pulled down one of those screens with a map of the country that this company covered, right? And each section, each region was divided, like the country was divided into regions. Most of them were, excuse me, all of them but one, were white men. The other one was a Latinx gentleman. And I remember looking at it because my goal was like climbing the corporate ladder, I’m going to be a CEO. I’m gonna do all of this, right? And I remember thinking to myself, so is there no way no room for women at the top? That was the first one. And then the second one was, I had saved up all of my vacation days for brands on my honeymoon, right? So I had two weeks of vacation days. And we had chosen to go to Tahiti, for our honeymoon. Well, anybody who’s been there knows it’s a 12-hour flight, and you’re not gonna go for three days and turn it around. So I remember, sick, like putting in my time filling out whatever form about eight months in advance, and my boss looked at me and he goes, two weeks. I only took a weekend. Why are you taking two?
Danielle Roberts: Sounds like a you problem.
Kelly Meerbott: Right, right. So when you work with somebody who’s in that kind of toxic situation and doesn’t have a way out? Or? Oh, no, yeah. Does it have a way out has lost hope? What would you say to them?
Danielle Roberts: I tried to fight a toxic position from the inside out. And the first thing you need to understand is that you are never going to be able to change the culture of that place. You have precious energy. So what energy you do have focus it on getting out of that toxic situation, as quickly as you can find the low-hanging fruit in your network literally go through every contact in your phone, if you have to and say I’m looking for a new job, here are my skills. Do you know of anybody hiring, do the same thing with your LinkedIn connections just to get out of that headspace, because it’s really difficult to make grounded career decisions and sound career decisions when your nervous system is in fight or flight like that, and your dukes are up. And you just you don’t know left from right, because you’re being gaslit all over the place. But I can say with certainty because I’ve been in that situation that there is hope. And as long as you stay true to what you know is right. You will find yourself in a much better situation. It will require some healing afterward because those toxic environments do give you some trauma like actual PTSD in some instances. So give yourself grace. And realize like, the next step doesn’t have to be the career move where you have everything figured out. And you found a quote unquote, perfect environment, because that doesn’t exist. Just say I need to get myself back to a baseline.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, I mean, that’s, I love the healing piece. Because as I was listening to you, when I got laid off, in 2009, I was 200 pounds overweight, would drink a venti Red Eye, which at like two o’clock, which for those of you that don’t know, a red eye, or excuse me, it was called a black eye, actually, it’s a large coffee with six shots of espresso in it, and I would drink that. Six, I would drink that thing. And it would maybe coast me for an hour, and then I would be exhausted. And I was like, the hell. I’m 20. Like, I know, I was actually in my early 30s. But that’s still not old. And what I realized was it was contributing, obviously, that the stress of the environment was contributing overall to the stress of me. So yeah, I really think that’s a healing piece that that trauma healing has to be integrated. And the other thing is, and I know Daniel, and I’ve talked about this healing is not linear, you know, so my process of healing may be different from Danielle’s may be different from Cecily’s maybe different from Bill’s right. I mean, I, I’ve been in therapy for, I think, almost 28 years. And my, my dad was like, So when do you think you’ll be done with therapy? I was like, Never, never. Because of the things that come up, especially when we’re working with people, which is my next question. How do you keep yourself from being triggered when you’re working with somebody who’s in a similar environment that we were in?
Danielle Roberts: Yeah, well, I am an active therapy-goer as well. I started with cognitive behavioral therapy, I still do some traditional talk therapy and EMDR. So I make sure that I’m investing in my own healing outside of the environments that I’m in. I also stay very grounded throughout the week through practices and rituals like Sunday, I sit down with myself, I journal through what went well, this past week, what are some areas for improvement? What do my people need, and structure my weeks around that? When I’m in that environment, I know that I need to stay grounded, and meet them where they’re at. And that what they are going through has nothing to do with me and my personal experience, it’s a means to hopefully relate with them. But to try and prevent me from getting triggered, I listen for the problem, like what is going on underneath the surface? What need is going unmet in this person? And how can I try and meet this need in this moment? So a lot of active listening, and then reflecting back what I’ve heard to make sure that I have their intent, right. I don’t always get it right. But yeah, that’s just my general approach of just trying to like, say they’re going through something they’re a human being, and how can I meet them where they’re at?
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, and that’s actually very similar to my approach as a coach, you know, and but there is some self-talk where I’m like, This is not about you. Like, the feedback I give is, I’m not here to tell you what to do or judge you or go full metal jacket on your ass. I’m really here to listen and ask questions. And when I do give an observation, it’s listen, if it resonates with you, great. Let’s take it and run with it. If not, just leave it here in this session. So we’ve already kind of gone over the pivotal moment that made you shift. How would you describe your leadership philosophy? And how has it evolved over time?
Danielle Roberts: Yeah, and I think this is a difficult question for me to be completely honest, because I will get impostor syndrome about being a quote unquote, leader in a traditional sense, because I’ve only been a manager in one of my corporate positions. So like, I try and peel back those layers now of like, Why do I feel that way? Like, just because I haven’t had like a VP title in a corporate organization. Does that make me not a leader? But data shows us Gallup data shows us that only 18% of people actually have skills that show that they’re qualified to lead.
Kelly Meerbott: Read that again, please.
Danielle Roberts: Gallup data shows that only 18% of people currently in management positions display a strong ability to lead. So over 80% of people are not qualified to support their people or haven’t been taught or trained properly. Were there people, hence why we are in a shitstorm right now.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Like my six-year-old little girl and think we can swear on this. I’m, it’s like, what the fuck, man. And then the other part of me is like, that means we have job security. Hahaha, you know what I mean? But this is a you know, and the problem that me and a lot of other coaches run into, especially when we’re working on the organizational level is, hey, Danielle, you’re a great salesperson, tada, you’re a manager, and they don’t give you the training to go from peer to manager, or they don’t explain to you like the conversations you need to have up front like, yeah, we hung out a happy hour, but unfortunately, I’m not going to be able to do that anymore. You know, but people just don’t have those conversations. And you’re exactly right. If not, that is why we’re in this shitstorm. And, you know, I think the excuses, well, millennials and Gen Z’s don’t want to work. And I’m here to tell you, as a mentor and a coach and somebody who helps lead the cohort, that is absolutely not true.
Danielle Roberts: And as a millennial, I am rolling into another universe. Because the millennial clients that I have, the Gen Z clients that I have are some of the hardest working people that I know. And they want to work hard, and there are so many roadblocks and obstacles in their way from other people who are clinging too hard to the status quo.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, yeah. And what I always try to tell boomers, and my fellow Gen Xers is just millennials and Gen Z’s are so much smarter than we are. And what I mean by that, is, you all had a front seat to the nonsense that we had to deal with in corporate and we’re like, yeah, don’t want that.
Danielle Roberts: Yeah, we learned from it. We saw our parents work for the same employer for how many years and get scrapped right before retirement and lose their pension. Right? Like for what why would we maintain employer loyalty? When a job is to first and foremost, make money? And if it’s not doing that, we don’t have a clear path forward to increase our lifetime earning potential and provide for our families? Why is that so contentious? So I think that’s where I changed my mind about myself about my leadership ability to say like, well, the old ways of leadership aren’t working. And we can create something new. And I’m second oldest of five kids. So that is like one of my first leadership roles. My older sister had kids young when she was 16 years old. So I very much assumed a leadership role in my family. And then when my mom died, I really assumed a maternal role in my family. So that was like my first leadership position. And I think that what makes me a great quality as a leader is not just focusing on traditional skills that leaders do in the workplace, like, Okay, this is the role that you are in, these are the tasks that you do, here’s the path forward. I care about how you work best what your energy and engagement levels look like, and why you do the work that you do. That’s what stays, that that’s what keeps you tied to the work. That’s what keeps you showing up. And like relating to them, like literally, on a human level. It’s so basic, but I think that’s what sets me apart as a leader, like I’m listening to the things that people aren’t saying, or I’m asking questions that maybe they haven’t been asked before, for a reason to think about how work fits into their life on a macro scale, because you only get one shot at this. If depending on what you believe in, right? Like, you only like this is the one human lifetime that you have right now. How are you going to express the very best parts of who you are in your work? What are you not getting out of your work right now? How can I help you whether that is within this workplace, or in the next one? That is a role as a leader? Not to box them in?
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, I mean, I literally love that. And I always say that’s like listening between the lines, you know, because 90% of all communication is nonverbal. So what are you know, some of the questions that I asked and we’ve gone over this is like, what’s your energy telling you? What’s your body telling you what your emotions telling you? 70% of my client base is, white cishet Mad Men. So they’ll look at me like, that’s a soft skill. I’m like, first of all, it’s changed that because it’s a crucial skill. And number two, if you don’t think empathy, compassion and love and when I say love in the professional sense, I mean, mutual admiration and respect, are not qualities that the next the future leaders of work are demanding, not asking, demanding, you’re going to be left behind. So for me, my leadership philosophy is to create belonging. So what I mean by that is, first belonging within myself how I manifest in life and then from there, create belonging wherever I go. Now, creating belonging wherever I go, it also doesn’t mean I’m soft on my boundaries, like, I’m not gonna let people walk all over me, you know. But in terms of like, Do you have a mantra that guides your work?
Danielle Roberts: I mean, I do my little affirmations every morning in this little journal. And a lot of what I write down is like, I am capable, I am worthy of success. And I repeat those things to myself often, as it relates to my work, what keeps me going is that I’m on a mission to create a more human first future of work. Because soft skills, like you said, you know, people can scoff at them and say, like, Oh, that’s a soft skill. But the soft skills are what’s consistent as technology changes across the board, your ability to communicate and problem solve and resolve conflicts. So the people, the data, even show us now that the people who have soft skills are the ones who stay at their employees longer are their employers longer. And that it’s just skills that you bring into the workforce and in the rest of your life. So they’re, they’re anything but soft.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, yeah, that’s why I call them crucial skills. I love that. You know, and so for conflict resolution, let’s kind of hang there for a little bit. So how do you guide yourself and your clients through conflict resolution?
Danielle Roberts: Do you want to work through an example?
Kelly Meerbott: Sure, I’d love that. Okay, do you have a specific one in mind?
Danielle Roberts: So for me, conflict resolution starts by coaching each individual in the conflict, like, what do you want to get out of this? Why is this so contentious? Why are you labeling this a conflict? Conflict is a healthy thing. You know, now, we won’t go into the ins and outs of our family dynamic. But, you know, conflict for me as a child was, You’re too loud, You’re too sensitive, what you’re saying is right, but your timing is terrible. So I was always, and then I realized that conflict, especially in like, the corporate setting, or in organizational settings, is really a risk analysis. Right? Maybe what you’re conflicted about is something that’s been under the surface that if you don’t talk about it, and bring it to light could cause problems down the road. Right. So why is it a conflict? Is it you know, what’s the why behind the what? What is it that’s making you feel conflicted? And I’ll be honest, when I first went into corporate and like, my bosses would correct me, I would feel like, you know, when I was in kindergarten, and the nuns would yell at me, and I’d be like, What did I do? The shame and the guilt. Right, and thank you Catholic Church, I appreciate that so much for driving that home. Talk about another toxic organization, but we won’t go there. I think I already did. But yeah, so that’s kind of what I was thinking. I mean, I will, I’ll give you an example of a conflict that that I dealt with. So there was a university here in Philadelphia, the head of engineering called me and was like, we got a referral for about you from the president and the provost. And we heard that you’re awesome. So I meet with him and, and he’s like, the biggest challenge I have is I’ve got these two engineers that hate each other. And the problem is, we’re going through a merger. And they’re really smart. They’re really great. They’ve been on the team together for 20 years, but they hate each other. So well, I said, you know, I can’t guarantee this. But some of the exercises we have in team building are really a miracle like you, you sit there and you go, did that just happen? So they come into the room the first day. And I will tell you, when I said that to the head of engineering, who has like double PhDs, he rolled his eyes. He was like, okay, yeah, like I said, like I said, I can’t guarantee it, but I’m going to do what I can to hold the space. Well, we went through Patrick Lencioni, his personal histories exercise, which, if anybody really wants to build trust and a non-invasive way, this is great. It’s three questions. So it’s, where did you grow up? Do you have any siblings? Where did you fall in the birth order and describe a unique or interesting challenge you survived in childhood? So I always model it when I’m working with a client, especially in team building, and we get to the first engineer and I’m watching him with my peripheral vision on the guy across, you know, the other engineer because they were sitting across from each other. They’re shooting daggers at each other. And the first engineer says, and my father died when I was six. So I see shifting but I’m still looking at him. And I’m like, I don’t know what that’s about. But okay, we get around to the other side. And he goes through the questions. The other engineering engineer number two says, and my dad died when I was six. And I’m like, and literally, you see the ice melt between them. About a month after I get a call from the head of the organization and he said, You know, when you told me it was a miracle, I thought it was airy fairy bullshit. He said, But it’s literally made a 180 These guys are going on lunch together they’ve achieved like, you know, it’s, it’s just amazing.
Danielle Roberts: Isn’t it amazing how it’s like seeing an honoring the humaneness in another person. Then a lot of people are like, what strategies do I need to apply? Like, what do we need to do? And sometimes it’s literally going back to the basics.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, another conflict I can bring up and then please jump in and interrupt me was when I was living in Virginia, there was a very large wall still is, still exists, especially specialty eye care practice. So if you went to your eye doctor, and they said, Danielle, you’ve got astigmatism, you would go to this place to get the surgery, right. The CEO ran tech. So it was all the people that worked with the surgeons to make sure, you know, everything went smoothly. Part of their bonus and salary bumps were based on quarterly reviews. She had 49 people reporting to her. The reviews hadn’t been done in 18 months. And people were pissed off and showing up late and not caring. And she said, what are some strategies to fix this? I said, You need to have an individual meeting with each person, no agenda. And the first question you ask them is, how are you? And then you zip it. And she’s like, no agenda. And I said, no agenda, because the whole idea is to listen and understand what’s going on. She did that we got it done in 90 days, their annual budget was $10 million. That was the goal. And by the end of that year, they had hit 15 million. So you know, and then people were coming together. And just the view of her was totally different. And the other piece of it was she was going through a really, really bad like violent divorce. And when I met her, she’s like, but I’ve gotten over that. He said, really angry to me. And then started crying. I said, you know, the more we try to hide those things, the more they come out in terms of conflict again, and I don’t know if you work through conflict resolution within an organization or if it’s just the individual. So what would you say if you ran up against either one of those situations?
Danielle Roberts: Yeah, I will. First of all, kudos for how you handled those things. Amazing. I liked that it wasn’t overly complicated, it was easily digestible, and something that they could act on immediately. I mostly deal one on one right now with people or managers. And I listen for what’s really going on. So for example, I just had a client get on PIP performance improvement plan, wasn’t hitting her metrics, and got really defensive at the feedback from her manager. So she immediately thought, you know, everyone’s against me, I need to immediately leave, nobody cares about me, nobody reaches out to help me, all these different things. So what’s really going on underneath after a couple of sessions is first of all, she doesn’t like the job at all. And she has never had a conversation with her manager about what support even looks like. So the conflict is the manager is making assumptions. And she’s making assumptions. Yeah, about what support looks like. So the solution was to have a meeting to say, here’s how I feel supported. How can we work this into our regular sessions to make sure that I’m meeting your expectations? After the first 30 days, she is off the plan. She’s good.
Kelly Meerbott: That’s amazing. It brings me to so a previous guest, Julian Suba and I were talking about Harvard’s Immunity to Change and they literally operate off of what’s the assumption and for me, another way of saying it is if you have dandelions in your yard, and you want to get rid of them, you got to pull them out by the root. So what’s the root that’s giving life to this belief? And the other thing that’s been rolling around in my head going about beliefs, and this this would be so fascinating to hear your thoughts. But a belief is just a thought you keep thinking over and over and over again. Right? And then it becomes a belief. So what’s the belief? Where’s it coming from? Where’s it rooted in? You know, what is what’s breathing life into those and keeping the assumption alive?
Danielle Roberts: Beliefs are really identity level. So when our beliefs are confronted about ourselves, we want to just reinforce what we know to be true. But Neuroscience tells us that we are not these fixed human beings. We there’s neuroplasticity, we can change how we think and view the world. So we have to challenge like when when our beliefs feel violated, we often will divert to anger, right? But what is that pointing to something that I need to confront or heal within myself, for example, and not even a work environment? I am, I love my work. So I will default to it. And that dialogue, I like pouring myself into it, I love being able to help people. I get resentful toward my wife, when she is relaxing. Like I get angry sometimes. And not because she’s relaxing. Like, I acknowledge logically that people need to relax and rest. But I think back to my beliefs, like what is that belief rooted in that, like, I’m getting angry about, I think back to childhood of my parents coming home from work. And if we’re sitting on the couch, we better get up and make ourselves look useful. I actually wish that I could relax like her. Right? Like it’s not, it’s not about her at all. It’s about it’s about my belief about it. And I think the more that we can be self-aware and challenge those beliefs that we have about ourselves and about the world and say, like, where am I getting this wrong? That’s when things get better.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. And Danielle, and I have that same challenge. And she beautifully recommended a book called “Rest as Resistance.” Because what happens in my life is people around me, very close to me will go, you’re doing too much need to rest doing too much. My brother said to me, when you go to the doctor and tell them your fatigue, do you tell them you never sit down. And then what ends up happening is the universe God, whatever you believe in, will send something like COVID, which I had for the first time in March, and be like we told you to rest. We sent you messages. You didn’t listen. So now you’re gonna lay down for five days. And “Rest as Resistance” is a really, really powerful, powerful book, definitely get it. If you don’t know, the Instagram is nap ministry, which is fantastic. You said you were talking about neuroplasticity. And I know this, I don’t know if this is a logical jump. But I’d love to talk to you about neurodivergence, because I have a couple members on my team that are neurodivergent. And I know there’s a lot of chatter about it. So I was wondering if you can explain what it is how having somebody that’s neurodivergent on your team is a powerful asset. Now I will, you know, kind of lay out. The way I understand it is there’s nothing wrong with you, you’re not broken, it’s just your brain works differently in a broken system.
Danielle Roberts: So talk to me about that and how you’ve seen neurodivergence playing a part in the future of work. Well, depending on what level of neurodivergent you are, like it can be classified as a disability and the workplace and you can request accommodations, it looks different for everybody. So it could be ADD, could be ADHD, could be autism could be a combination of all of those things. Could be that plus C PTSD. So it looks very different for everybody. What I can speak to is my own experience with it with ADHD and with the suspicion that I might be on the autism spectrum as well. I view it as a way that I am constantly like observing myself living my life without actually living my life. I am constantly analyzing and dissecting the things that I am constantly doing without just doing them. Which is an interesting experience. But for someone like me, who has ADHD and I have a sneaking suspicion that I may be also on the autism spectrum. what that would look like in the workplace for me is having concrete takeaways from meetings. So like having something actually like, Okay, I need to do XY and Z by what date? And why I need like the purpose of like the why? Because what it feels like to me is constantly observing myself living my life and doing my tasks without just being present in my life doing the tasks, I’m analyzing and dissecting them, I need to feel like a strong connection to why I am doing it. Or I don’t understand why I’m spending time doing it.
Kelly Meerbott: Gotcha. Yeah, I get that. So the way I see that is, it’s almost like watching a reality TV show. But you’re not in the reality TV show, you’re kind of watching it. Is that a fair analogy?
Danielle Roberts: Yeah, I’m like, observing everyone’s interactions with each other, and how everyone is like thinking and like, I’m, I’m trying to assume what they’re feeling without just watching the show. For the sheer enjoyment of it. Like, one of my big hyper focuses is just understanding why people are the way they are and how they work. So like, I am super tuned in to that, whether that is in my own life or other people’s. So like, I’m trying to seek to understand where people are coming from all the time.
Kelly Meerbott: Gotcha. And then it goes back to the dandelion root, right? Is, where’s it rooted in? So okay, so two questions, and then we’re gonna go to rapid fire. So another debate that I hear a lot on the C suite is remote hybrid are in person. And my philosophy is, you measure by results, not by presence. So if they’re remote, and they’re getting your results, leave them alone. If they’re hybrid, and they’re getting results, leave them alone, if they’re in person, and they’re getting results, leave them alone.
Danielle Roberts: I completely agree with you. It is all about flexibility. And it’s going to be unique to the person, there are some people who want to be in office, there are some people who only want to be in office, sometimes there are some people who have a lot of family demands caregiving demands and need to stay home more often than not to be available. And as long as they’re getting their work done. Why do you care?
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, that’s what I don’t understand. I mean, there’s, well, I do understand it, let’s be real, like, you know, I mean, 90% of the C suite and board positions are still occupied by straight white men. And that is literally the paradigm that we’ve all learned.
Danielle Roberts: And then they also have that like to have the real estate aspect of it to like, oh, shit, we paid for this building. And now we need to have people here. It’s like, well, that’s not your employees’ problem. The world has changed. And it’s up to you to adapt, figure it out. If you’re a leader, if you’re as smart as you say you are, figure it out.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, well, and it’s, it’s also, I mean, for me, what I’ll say to CEOs is, so you have 250,000 square feet of real estate, you know, in San Diego, what if you were to do affordable housing and convert that we can’t do that? No, let’s be clear. It’s not that you can’t do it. You don’t want to do it. So let’s, let’s make that distinction. But yeah, I mean, the other thing that always makes me laugh is this narrative of a recession. Have you seen a recession?
Danielle Roberts: We are in a silent recession right now. The cost of living is wiping out any wage gains that people have had over the past several years. Because of corporate greed.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’ll tell you, I didn’t realize how I mean, I knew it was bad. But then I saw Warren Buffett, who happens to be my favorite billionaire. And I think he’s neurodivergent, too. And the reason I say those, I was watching this documentary, and his first wife was saying she had the stomach flu. And he came home from work. And she was like, you know, Warren, I need you to get me something to throw up in. And she said, he went downstairs and she hears him rattling around in the kitchen, and he brings back a colander. And she’s like, um, she goes back down to the kitchen and grabs a sheet pan, puts the colander on it. And she was like, no, no. But here’s what I love about him. So I saw him giving a speech somewhere online, I can’t remember. Anyway, he said that Berkshire Hathaway just gave the IRS a $5 billion check for their taxes. And he said, if the other 800 companies in the United States did that, not one of us would have to pay federal taxes, not one of us. So, you know, it is that corporate greed and it is shrinkflation and it is OSHA and I made a mistake by getting 250,000 square feet and oh, by the way, the SBA called our loan during the pandemic that they never should have had in the first place. Okay, last question is about imposter syndrome because you and I have talked about that right? And you know, based on statistics, 70%, Seven, zero of the global population has it. Do you have it? And how do you deal with it? How does it manifest in your life?
Danielle Roberts: So usually, it’s just like that nagging voice in the back of your head that’s like, Who do you think you are for trying to do this? My career, my career switches back, I spent 10 years in corporate social media marketing that to anti-career coaching isn’t a very linear career path. So it sounded like that voice of Who do you think you are? You can’t be any good at this. And one of the things I did that was helpful is I renamed that voice in my head, Little Bitch. So I can differentiate if that’s actually me talking, or if it’s just like my fear coming up. And then I challenge it. And I say, is this true? Like, is it true? I have evidence that I have figured out things before that I have not known. And I trust in my own resilience and resolve to figure things out. People aren’t born with confidence and born with skill or born with passion. You gain skill and passion by putting in the reps. So I’ll look at my early posts on social media and be like, Oh, cringe, like, that sucks when I first started, but I got better. I put in the reps, I’m still getting better. There’s still things that I get wrong. But no one has 100% of their life figured out. No one No one everyone is like no one knows what they’re doing.
Kelly Meerbott: I mean, just think what you said Warren Buffett bought, like, everyone that we would classify as smart for being a you know, billionaire, which I don’t believe that there are any ethical billionaires. But grabbing a colander for throw up. I know, you can figure it out.
Danielle Roberts: I tend to Yeah, come on, Warren. And you’re like, and you know, again, I only know what I know of him. So you know, I don’t know how ethical he is. Yeah, it’s it, what it is what it is. But, you know, I had a situation last year, around this time, actually. I was one of 160 civilians in the world, chosen to go to the national security seminar at Army War College. And they, they Yeah, it was awesome. But I, I walk into the room, the cocktail reception, and I’m like, there’s the CEO of Lockheed Martin. There’s that book am I doing here? And I walked up to a table of two guys that ended up being very, very kind and I go, kind of thinking, why the hell am I in this room? And they looked at me without missing a beat. And they were like, we’re all thinking that. And I was like, oh, so for me it’s it was like, getting that energy out and like labeling it that really helped take the wind out of the imposter syndrome sales. And then the other thing I’ll do is go who’s telling you that? Because Danielle is not saying you don’t belong in this room. Army War College wasn’t saying I didn’t belong in that room. Kelly was telling herself that right? Or my internal voice his name is Stella. Don’t ask why. I don’t hate Stella’s in the world. It’s just what floated up when I was trying to name my ego my ego mind. Okay, so are you ready for some rapid fire questions?
Danielle Roberts: I am.
Kelly Meerbott: What is your favorite comfort food?
Danielle Roberts: Sushi.
Kelly Meerbott: Okay, any kind of like rolls or sashimi?
Danielle Roberts: Anything with salmon and avocado and crab.
Kelly Meerbott: Yum. Yes, the rice just gives me like it just makes me feel full and good.
Danielle Roberts: Yeah, so this is a weird thing. But isn’t that the mouthfeel the texture because a lot of times for me will come for food has to be like, soft like pasta or bread. Things that don’t do well with my system. But is it a mouthfeel thing?
Danielle Roberts: Yeah, I would think it’s like more of just like the satiated feeling afterward.
Kelly Meerbott: Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay, what books are on your nightstand?
Danielle Roberts: I’m currently rereading “Untamed” by Glennon Doyle. Got “Mirror Box Fables” on there. And “Creative Way of Being,” a creative act of being.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great time to lean into my creativity a little bit more. Yeah. And you know, if you haven’t read it, or you have read it, reread it “Big Magic” by Elizabeth Gilbert.
Danielle Roberts: Got that one right over here. I actually feel like I need to revisit that.
Kelly Meerbott:
Okay. What songs are on your playlist?
Danielle Roberts: You know, one of the ways that I experience adventure in life is I love listening to my Discover Weekly playlist every single week on Spotify. I recently released a new playlist. So I’m constantly discovering new songs on there. And I’m really loving said the sky, Yost and Betty Hill.
Kelly Meerbott: I love Betty Who. It’s funny because our chief communications officer slash marketing person is listening in the background, Cecily, and she just messaged me, she’s like, Oh, my God, I do that too. And one of my like, there’s so many great things about Cecily, but on Friday, she’ll be like, listen to this. Listen to this, and I may massacre this author’s name and I forgive me if you hear this, or if you hear this, please spread her on the podcast. Chinchilla. I think that’s did I say that right? Hopefully, I said that right. “Little Girl Gone.” Yes. I love little girl gone. I love that. It’s my angry anthem, you know? And of course, I’m getting a message saying all of her songs too. And yes, I have listened to like, what is it “Chalk Talk Outlines.” And I think there’s one called “MF Diamonds,” I think, but I’m not sure.
Danielle Roberts: I’ll have to listen to the entire album. I do have a lot of like pride and albums on repeat too, because that is pride month. So trying to listen to those queer artists this month.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, I’ve been an aspiring ally since I was 14. And I always say aspiring because I believe allies need to earn it every day. Every single day. Right? And that perspective? Yeah, happy pride. I mean, Happy Pride. I love pride and actually, pride. Yay. Love wins. Yes, yes. This actually came from the funeral of the DEI, the head of dei for the city of Philadelphia, who I met for six weeks glorious as our as, and I was fortunate to get invited to walk through the city of Philadelphia to her funeral. And they gave us all flags. So sweet. One of my favorite speeches real quick that mero Nutter gave was, he’s like, you know, I go to like, 40 events a day. And usually I’m hopping in a car and somebody’s handing me like bullet points and all that. And he said, so I get in the car. And Gloria hands me. I she you know, with questions on it and bullet points, and I go, can I say Dyke March? Am I allowed this? She’s like, Yes, Mr. Married. But she was a very powerful force here in Philly. And I’m just glad I got six weeks to know her, you know, wasn’t long enough. But she was amazing. Okay, final question. What are you most grateful for in this moment right now?
Danielle Roberts: This conversation with you. Since we’ve been in touch, you’ve been a mentor to me, You’ve helped me along the way. And I’m just thankful for you facilitating really important conversations that change the world and help us connect to the humaneness and each other. I think that’s what’s been missing for a lot of years in the United States. And a lot of people aren’t brave enough to have these conversations, and they just live their life on autopilot. So I’m grateful for you and for this and the work that you do.
Kelly Meerbott: Thank you for saying that. Because you know, as coaches and any coach that tells you this is not true is probably lying. You know, we have moments where we’re like, are we really making an impact on the world is, Do I really matter? And between you and reading to a class of eighth graders yesterday, we read the unicorn fable together in there in West Philly, and it was just, you know, I mean, it just took my breath away, and so do you. So do you. I mean, anytime I talk to leaders like you, I’m like, Future’s good. We’re good. I honestly think that Gen Z and millennials are going to save our world. And anytime I meet you, whether it’s you or my nieces and nephews who I constantly apologize to, I’m like, sorry, we left your shit show. How can I help fix it? But yeah, all right. So if anybody wanted to get in touch with you, whether it’s an interview, because I know you do a lot of great interviews and have had a lot of exposure, which makes me grateful that you’re willing to come on Hidden Human. How would they get in touch with you?
Danielle Roberts: You can find me online at Daniel roberts.co Or you can find me across socials that I’m Danielle Roberts.
Kelly Meerbott: Okay, great and and follow her. Listen to Danielle’s content. It is so great. And by the way, Gen X and Boomers. Follow her and listen because there are great nuggets that will help you adjust for your leadership so that you can not only align with, but resonate with the future of work and it’s, it’s going to help you stay relevant. It is listen to what she has to say. Okay? And thank you to our audience for listening. It’s our intention on Hidden Human to inspire you to go out and have authentic conversations to deepen the emotional connections in your life. Thank you so much, everybody, and make it a great day.
