EP47: The Anxious Achiever with Morra Aarons-Mele: Turn Your Biggest Fears into Your Leadership Superpower

LISTEN ON:  iTunes  |   Libsyn   |   iHeartRadio  |   Spotify

Join Kelly Meerbott and guest Morra Aarons-Mele as we dive into Morra’s two missions in life: first, helping leaders who manage anxiety, depression, neurodivergence, OCD, mental illness and more thrive at work — and why people with different brains need to work differently. Secondly, Morra is also committed to helping organizations learn how to talk about mental health at work in a productive and beneficial way.

Here is a transcript from the show.

Kelly Meerbott: Welcome to the space where we reveal our personal humanity to reconnect with our shared humanity. Let’s begin our conversation with somebody I admire, but am just meeting for the first time, Morra Aarons-Mele. Welcome. You’re an author and a podcast host. And I’m gonna let you tell everybody all the amazing things that you’re up to right now.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Thanks, Kelly. It’s great to be here. I am an author and podcast host! My second book, “The Anxious Achiever,” was published in April, and I have hosted for nine seasons the “Anxious Achiever” podcast.

My mission in life is twofold: one, to help leaders who manage anxiety, depression, OCD, bipolar disorder, Autism Spectrum Disorder, anything that makes their brain function differently, thrive at work. Because when you have a different brain, you need to work differently, you have incredible gifts, and you have things that need support. So I work with lots and lots of leaders who are anxious or who identify as neurodivergent. And I also really, really, really want organizations, companies, startups, corporate America, to learn how to talk about mental health at work in a productive and helpful way. I love that.Kelly Meerbott:

I love that. As somebody who deals with anxiety herself, this was when our mutual colleague and loved one Cecily Kellogg was like, “Let’s get her on right now.”

If I were a six-year-old child, how would you explain to me, in a way I can understand, what an “anxious achiever” is.

Morra Aarons-Mele: I would say an anxious achiever is someone who really, really, really likes to do things well, who feels that they wake up in the morning, and there’s a million things to do, and they’re gonna give everything their all and they’re just gonna go, go, go, go, go. Maybe they even want to be the best. That’s great, and they’re keeping the best, and then they are the best and the best gets kicked up a notch. And they have to be the best at that, and that and that. So they achieve a lot, right? And whatever their chosen field is, they get a lot of external accolades and validation. And they think this is how life is.

Along the way, though, they get tired. Maybe they start feeling things in their body, or they get burnt out, or they just start feeling like they can’t concentrate, or they just one day, just can’t anymore. And they realize that what has been propelling them forward is anxiety, which fundamentally, is worry, right? A sense that a threat lies ahead, or that a sense that we’ve had a threat, and we have to do everything in our power to avoid that ever happening again. And we realize that that part of us, we love that achiever self and where it’s gotten us and maybe that’s part of who we are, but that anxiety piece is dragging us down, and we might need to fix it a little bit.

Kelly Meerbott: Okay, all right. Let me just grapple with that. Because yeah, I mean, everything you’re saying to me is speaking to me on a heart and soul level. So, what was it in your soul that said, this is the direction I want to go with my life? You have to be called to do this work, so what was that calling? How did that manifest?

Morra Aarons-Mele: I’ve always wanted, since I was 28 years old, to be a workplace therapist. I’m 40. I’m going to be 47 in a month. So that tells you something.

Kelly Meerbott: Welcome. I turned 47 in April, welcome to the club.

Morra Aarons-Mele: We could talk about that later. Cecily knows that I was trained as a political consultant and worked in very early internet marketing, internet community issue advocacy, using digital marketing for presidential campaigns, all that good stuff. And all along I had a lot of different jobs and all along my mental health and my personality and my temperament kept getting in the way. And I’ve been grappling with clinical anxiety and depression since I was 19 years old. Now I know that I have bipolar two, which gives me a little bit of a different profile. And so my mental health was a real thing in the middle of this anxious achievement, and also a real passion for work. I love to work, I’m a really career-identified person. And so when I was 28, I started reading and I started thinking, you know, I have such a hard time at work, there have to be people out there who could help me. Like, I go to my therapist to talk about my relationships, or my boyfriends, or my parents, as I did as a 28-year-old — but need someone who really would almost be at work to help me.

And I went to grad school at night to get my clinical social work degree. And then I went and got my master’s at Harvard also. And that was my dream. But life intervened. And I never finished my social work degree. And I was consulting in digital politics and issue advocacy. And that became a business, a really fabulous business that I actually sold two years ago. And along the way, I just blogged about articles, I interviewed lots of people, I studied, I was just obsessed with how do we make work better, like work sucks for so many people. And for those of us with mental illness, it sucks even worse. And so I created my podcast and my first book “Hiding in the Bathroom”, which is about how people with introversion who are introverted and who have social anxiety can really get out there and build the ambitious life they love, and then “The Anxious Achiever”. And so now I’m trying to do it mostly full-time since I sold my business.

Kelly Meerbott: Wow, I mean, just wow. So how did you decide that experiencing anxiety could be a superpower?

Morra Aarons-Mele: I was asked to give a keynote address at my alma mater Brown University in 2012. To a roomful of high achieving women, sort of superstars of the senior class and people who were their mentors who had been matched up with them to do career mentoring. So a big room. They asked me to keynote, I have no idea why. And I decided to talk about my anxiety and my depression and how it started at Brown when I was 19 years old, and grew and grew and ebbed and flowed, and how finally, when I was 30 years old, I learned that I had to work in a very different way. And that I had superpowers, they just had to be treated with care. And I realized that I had learned a lot about living an intentional work life.

And that this could be instructive to all these women at Brown, who, you know, back then 2012, it was still this sort of rah rah mentorship era, we didn’t talk about this stuff. It was all like, you got this girl, like, let’s do this, you know, it was even pre girl boss. But I really wanted to share with them that you could be clinically depressed, clinically anxious, bipolar, and still have an amazing career. It just might take some ups and downs. And like I say, like that speech was the only time in my life that I felt like Oprah, like, the room just exploded, and people were crying, and they were so grateful and laughing. And it was amazing. And I realized that there was much to be given and gained, by helping people understand the stuff and then learning from others.

Kelly Meerbott: I mean, all of this is resonating with me on such a deep level, I can’t,  that’s not even a good word for it. I just can feel what you’re saying in my body. You know, I said to you, before we started recording, I went to college, the Holy Cross, right. And I was sexually assaulted three times within a month of one another, there, and I did my TEDx talk on it. So it’s not, yeah. But that’s when my anxiety and clinical depression started, you know, and just like you, it’s been ebbs and flows, and I’m somebody who loves to work and is “work identified,” but I find that it’s a pendulum swing, right. Like, I’m a sprinter, I will go hard for a long time and then it all crashes, right? I just need to run to me. I’m wondering, Morra, like, you know, you talk a lot about anxiety as a tool for growth. I really believe that I believe the universe God, whatever you subscribe to, whoever you pray to, will put you into pain to get you to shift. I’m just wondering how you channel your fear into action, because there are times when I can do that where I’m like, Okay, now I’m pissed and like that. Go, right. And then other times, I’m like, What the fuck? No matter what I do, it’s still not enough. So how do you handle that?

Morra Aarons-Mele: That’s therapy. Lots of practice. Yeah. Good. Good. Psycho farm.

We have all of that. I mean, people always are like, stop saying the word superpower. I do think superpower has been jargonized in business culture. And yes, my publisher was like, let’s, you know, let’s ride this wave. But anxiety is not a superpower, mental illness is not a superpower, God forbid surviving sexual assault is not a superpower. The superpower happens when you look at the hard feelings. Look at the pain, do the work, learn the skills, apply the skills, and show up. Resiliency is another buzzword. But when you’ve been through mental illness, for example, you have no choice. You can live in fear that it will come back, which we all fear.

If you’ve been depressed once, you’re terrified, when you get better, and that it might come back. And so you can live in fear. Or you can say, it might come back, it probably will. I have skills, and I’m going to show up. The thing that happens miraculously along the way is you do, you get tougher, you develop strategies that help you face the fear and do it anyway, you become more compassionate and empathetic, because you’ve seen pain, and you’re more able to see pain and give back to other people. That is such a powerful leadership quality when you’re self aware, you are actually good in a crisis because you’ve been there and you’ve been planning for it. You’re able to be there in a way a lot of other people are not, you know.

This is something that I’ll say, but I’m not a scientist, and I can’t go super deep. But you know there is data that brains who are mentally ill, are more creative. Just sort of willing to lean into things, are willing to take risks, and can see things where other people can’t. This is a really emerging field in genetics. So I think that it’s the superpower when we don’t try to stuff it away, which is right. And when you lean into it, it’s a tool. Yeah.

Kelly Meerbott: I mean, so it’s fair to say that you and I are proud Gen Xers, right. We were raised by the boomers, and I’ll share this with you: my dad called me a day ago and asked, “So when do you think you’ll be finished with therapy?” I was like, never. He said, “What? Why not?” I was like, I’ve been in it 27 years with all kinds of modalities like EMDR and somatic therapy. I mean, you name it, I’ve probably done it. They’re all very, very helpful. I have peeled back the onion on how, you know, I understand myself.

I mean, just to kind of validate what you’re saying… In my work as an executive coach for high performers across all industries, I find that there’s such a much more deep emotional connection. If I model like, “Hey, this is what happened in this situation for me, this is how I handled it, so take whatever learning you can and apply it to your life.” It’s just really powerful to be that vulnerable. So for me, I think what I’m hearing from you is — and correct me if I’m wrong — but having a care team for me, whether it’s my psychiatrists, therapists, and all of that. That’s what really helps me move forward and be more self-aware.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Yes! That’s what I call, I call it your infrastructure.

Kelly Meerbott: Oh, I love that.

Morra Aarons-Mele: So people always ask me, okay great, great, whatever — what does this have to do with work? What does this have to do with how I show up as a boss, as a manager or as a teammate? And I’m like, everything, because it’s not like we’re our one self with our partner and with our kids or at home, and another one self at therapy, and then we’re our work selves just at work. Yes, no, we act out our shit on each other all day on. You know, and so I think that to me, it’s always been really shocking that we don’t talk about this stuff, because it shows up in all kinds of non helpful and sometimes helpful ways. And, you know, we could have so the number one question I get from my listeners is, my boss is toxic, help.

Kelly Meerbott: Yep. Yeah, yeah. And I will tell you, I’ll tell you a quick funny story. I was talking to a leader who is in a biotech company in Silicon Valley and he’s a prospect and while I was doing my vetting process on him he goes, “Does this emotional intelligence bullshit really work, Kelly?” I was like, OKAY, but he ended up hiring me, which I think was like a divine intervention. But I was like, and THIS is why I have job security. But I’m pivoting back. So in December of 2020, when NPR interviewed you, right there how I built this resilience series, which again, I worked for NPR early on in my career. So bucket list, I remember way too, you said that the pandemic caused you to lose 30% of business overnight, the pandemic spur this interest and the role and anxiety plays for leaders?

Morra Aarons-Mele: No, oh, oh, no, I had, I had been doing that for a couple of years. At that point, actually. What it did do was really help my speaking business. Um, no, I, you know, I’ve always been obsessed with anxiety and how it shows up and, you know, had started with hiding in the bathroom and 2015 talking about anxiety, sort of wading into the waters. And then, by 2018, I was like, anxious achiever. This is it, you know, so, it was interesting, though, because the pandemic, although bad for my day job, initially at my company, women online because we had a thriving events business. And so we lost all our events, as many people did, we pivoted, we ended up having a great couple of years as most digital businesses did. Um, but what I found was that the interest in talking about workplace mental health obviously, during the pandemic just exploded, exploded. And, and, and that was awesome. Not awesome, because it was a terrible time, right. But I think that, you know, the pandemic sort of kicked us in the pants on issues that we were avoiding, and we couldn’t avoid them anymore.

Kelly Meerbott:It was almost like a universal facial. Have you ever had a facial where you break out the next day? So that’s where this got it. And unfortunately, I used to say like, I think mental health is going to be the second wave of the pandemic. And we’re seeing that right now. So you’re not wrong, but tell me about your life. Growing up? Where did you grow up? What sparked you to pursue the work you did earlier in your career?

Morra Aarons-Mele: It’s funny, you were talking about your dad. So for me, growing up as a Gen Xer born in 1976. Yep, I had a single mom who was into everything. So we were pagan for a while, she had every self help book under the sun, you know? So for me, we were all out there. Like I actually wasn’t in therapy until I was in college. I’m usually my, but the whole family was in therapy. Plus, I grew up in the very, like, New York Jewish world where literally all my parents, friends were therapists. So I have no shame around mental health. And I never have.

Kelly Meerbott: Oh I don’t. My mom’s dad was a doctor, but my family is like, I’m not talking. I was like, they’re like, how do you not? And we’re from Long Island and my mom’s from Brooklyn. My dad’s from Manhasset. But, you know, we’ve always kind of run in those circles. And I just don’t understand that. Some boomers are like you’re talking about with your family, but my family is not. And we come from a medical family, which… why?

Morra Aarons-Mele: That’s really interesting. My mom is actually the greatest generation. My parents were old and my dad, my dad has passed now, but so he would be in his 90s. So I had a little bit of a different lens on them generationally, but, you know, my mom had been at Berkeley in the 60s, and just was very, like, she just, she was open to it and, and had lived a life with a lot of trauma. So I had a very Gen X childhood too in which, you know, single mom, no father, sort of whatever. And, you know, I sort of took care of my younger sister and was a very mature, very sort of hyperfunctioning kid. And, and I’ve carried that with me, you know, I mean, I think, for me, the experience of childhood was one of hyper vigilance, which means you’re always scanning the environment, sort of, for threats and, and that was my experience. So I think that I know that I was anxious when I was three years old, I developed agoraphobia and wouldn’t go outside for a whole summer. I think I’m just wired that way. But, but, but very, very, very sort of, like I would say, no parental supervision was my childhood. Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, it’s interesting, like my best friend and I just Saturday were talking about, you know, childhood trauma and how something like this happening led to this. And by the way, now it’s showing up in the boardrooms. How could it not? But, you know, it’s, it’s just fascinating to me how things that happen in our childhood create the leaders we are today. And that’s what I’m hearing from you.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Yes, I have a whole chapter in my book about childhood hurts.

Kelly Meerbott: Oh my god, I can’t WAIT to read it.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Um, you, I don’t know if your listeners know about ACEs. But I think Cecily actually worked on some influencer campaigns, but aces or adverse childhood experiences. And it’s a scale that has been developed and is endorsed by the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics. And it’s a questionnaire that you can take online. And it basically lists out sort of adverse events and childhood traumas and hurts that have been shown to in longitudinal studies create increased risk for addiction, mental illness, all kinds of insecurities and vulnerable spots. And it’s interesting, because, you know, we as Gen Xers didn’t live in a time where there was a label for that. But there’s, that’s an interesting resource if you want to think about what your childhood objectively may have done. And there’s a book called Healing At Work, which I love so much, by Susan Schmidt-Winchester, I tell everyone about it, and I’ve had her on my podcast. And she, (bless you) had a pretty traumatic growing up and has created a method for adult survivors of damaged pasts. Like, and it’s around using the workplace as a lab to heal.

Kelly Meerbott: I love that. I love that. And you know what, my listeners may not know about ACEs. But as I was listening to you talk, I took three different courses at the Arizona trauma Institute. And they mentioned aces, a bunch, and I had just forgotten. So thank you for reminding me. You know, it’s, it’s just fascinating what these things do to imprint on us, you know, and what I find is that what you resist persists, right? So I used to be like, fine, I’m fine. It’s fine. It’s fine. Nope. You know. And the interesting thing is, and I get the sense that this is true for you, too, that when I started to, I wouldn’t say make friends who were like, besties with my anxiety. But as I started to learn, okay, that kicks this off. Like, there was a situation this weekend with our friends where somebody told another friend something before me, and I was like whining, she told me and I was like, Oh, that comes from childhood, where I felt like I was excluded. And that has nothing to do with her. Thank you, I’m calling Dr. Phillips right now. You know, that kind of thing.

So I’m interested. So if you were to look back at your 25 year old self, what advice would you give her?

Morra Aarons-Mele: Stop focusing on boys. Um,I would give her the advice to live more in the moment for sure. I think that that’s always been hard for me. I think a lot of your listeners and whenever you have anxiety, the hardest thing is to live in the moment.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, it is. It is and I will tell you. The best advice about my hyper vigilance and my hyper vigilance — which  is activated so many times like when Britney Spears was going through that whole thing with conservancy like I was just, I’m going to LA and I’m just gonna tell them, you know, but the best advice I actually got from a colleague of mine, who’s a police officer he was name is Eddie Walker. He’s been a police officer for 21 years. And he’s a liaison here and outside of Philadelphia with the US Marshals and the FBI, and he’s had a lot of trauma, his job and you know, did the work and said to me, you know, it’s okay to scan the room to find out where people are and where the exits are and then let it rest. And I was like, shit if a cop told me this, then, you know, he’s one of the cops that goes undercover and does all that kind of crazy stuff that nobody wants to, nobody does.

So it’s just, it’s just interesting. I’m so glad Cecily introduced us because it’s just you’re doing such important work in the world not just for work, but just for humanity as a whole and as an anxiety sufferer or survivor, I don’t know. Thank you. Thank you for everything you’re doing for humanity. It’s important.

Morra Aarons-Mele: I’m not sure it merits that but I do. I want to just say something about hyper vigilance. Which is weird is that a lot of these behaviors like hyper vigilance can get us rewarded at work. Now, they only get us rewards to a point. Yep. Because they’re not about growth. They’re about fear. Yep. But when you are the person who is always 10 steps ahead, who is metaphorically scanning the room of your business? Who is on it with those emails, who is on it every day? Right? Even if you’re acting out of childhood hurts and habits, your boss might be like, man, Kelly is on top of things.

Kelly Meerbott: Or, there’s a certain point in time when that attitude of the boss goes from “Kelly’s on top of things” to “Kelly’s just angry. She’s an angry woman.”

Morra Aarons-Mele: Oh, that’s interesting.

Kelly Meerbott: You know, and it’s and yeah, I’ll be real. I’m angry about a lot of stuff. But that, you know, keeps Dr. Phillips simpler. (laughter)

So, tell me about the worst job you ever had, and what lessons you learned from it?

Morra Aarons-Mele: Don’t like to talk about my bad jobs, because I still feel like all those people are still in my orbit.

Kelly Meerbott: Like, not naming the company or the blog.

Morra Aarons-Mele: I will. No, I know, I just tried to like, I’m, it’s funny. I’m a social media person. I’m like, very, I’m paranoid. I’m a little hyper vigilant about that. But um, I. So like, you probably came up before me too. And I definitely felt like I paid a lot of price for being a young woman for many years. And when I look back on that, I wonder if that was a factor in me always feeling anxious.

Frankly, I felt in several jobs that I was the target of a man’s attention who was in a position of power over me. I will admit that in one of those jobs, I encouraged it as a young woman. And that not only preoccupied me, but it sort of made it really hard when I was then asked to assert myself, Yes, or lead or manage. And so I often feel confused here. What role do you want me to play?

Kelly Meerbott: Right? LIke, just tell me what to do.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Like, am I this person that you flirt with? And like, say you want to sleep with? Or am I then this person that you yell at because I didn’t do something? I’m so confused.

Kelly Meerbott: It is confusing. It feels like emotional whiplash. Like, you know, very unbalanced, but I yeah, I resonate with that. I do resonate with that. Yeah, yeah, I do. I do. You know, and then the other thing that that actually plays in my favor a lot of times is that people will look at me and think I’m stupid, because of the way I look.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Interesting. That’s interesting.

Kelly Meerbott: And then I love debunking that.

Morra Aarons-Mele: How do you know they think you’re stupid? Are there clues the way they talk to you or…

Kelly Meerbott: The language, the language, the talking down to, the mansplaining? A, you know, it’s actually happened with, you know, female members of the LGBTQ+ community too, which is, you know, I go and look like, we’re a part of the sisterhood. It’s like, oh, no, I want to get like, no, that’s not what this is about. Okay. You know, and I think being a coach in this role, there is a danger of transference. You know, they mean, I typically put a stop to it right away, because that’s not the role I’m playing. And plus, I’m happily married for 15 years. So you know, I do love you in terms of mutual admiration and respect, but that’s not happening. But yeah, it’s the language, it’s the body language. It’s the sweetie, honey, like all that kind of nonsense.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Can I tell you my favorite mansplaining story ever?

Kelly Meerbott: Please, please, please tell me.

Morra Aarons-Mele: I mean, I have so many, but I was in Florida at my mom’s and I got to talking with this guy who was, you know, a really handsome guy probably in his mid 40s. Like the executive type. And we got to talking. And I said I was, you know, down here. I said, “Yeah, I’m writing a book. I’m taking some time.” And he goes, “Oh, yeah, I’m writing a book too.” And I was like, “Cool.” And we tell each other what our books are about. And he tells me how to publish a book. He’s like all this stuff. “Well, you need to want to do this and all that.” And he goes, “You’re self-publishing, right?” And I go, “No, actually, Harvard Business Review is my publisher.” I let him keep talking, I just was enjoying it too much.

 
Kelly Meerbott: I thought of a perfect example of what I’m talking about with you. And it didn’t happen in corporate; it actually happened two years before the pandemic. I was at a business meeting with an executive director of a nonprofit here in Philadelphia. And we were talking, and somehow he decided to slip in, he’s like, “Now what is your title?” And I was like, “Oh, it’s leadership coach, is that whatever I said,” and he goes, “Oh, I thought it was Dr. Hottie.” And then I was like… And then, of course, my mother told me, I should never play poker. So I look like, really? And it’s hard for me to, like, recover from that. Because I’m like, is that why I’m here? Is that why we’re having coffee? Because I’m here to talk about your business and trying to help you lose my publisher, and I’ll have to talk to you because I’m in the process of seeking a publisher for my third book. Yeah, because I really love it. And I think it’s going to be great. And I’d love to send you a copy for your thoughts, if you’re ever open to that. But if you can, you can also say no, because I do understand we’re on a podcast here, and I just put you on the spot. Please don’t feel bad or force you into anything. But pivoting back to your work. What is your favorite part of the work you do right now? Like I can pinpoint it for me, like right away what it is, I’m really interested, like where was that moment?

Morra Aarons-Mele: I mean, two things. One is, obviously when someone messages me and says “Your work has had such a profound effect on me, I was feeling so low, I thought I was the only one. Thank you.” That is, you know, and knowing that you’ve helped someone is the single greatest gift. You can give another person I think, right and so…

Kelly Meerbott: Interesting, because I just kind of said the same thing. And you’re like, I don’t think it warrants that. So what’s the difference between somebody DMing you and me literally telling me that this interaction is literally changing my life in real time. I’m just wondering.

Morra Aarons-Mele: I think I was just feeling embarrassed by it.

Kelly Meerbott: Okay, I’m sorry that I didn’t mean to embarrass you. I seriously mean it like you are an important person in our world doing important work. And at a level that it needs to be talked about.

Morra Aarons-Mele: See when you say that… first of all, I’m hearing it now. And I’m receiving it. And it, it definitely taps into impostor feelings.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, I totally get that. People say that, and it’s me all the time. I’m like, Okay, thanks.

Morra Aarons-Mele: So I think that, and it’s also to that 25-year-old girl who didn’t know what role she was supposed to play. Was it? You know, like, I think it’s, it’s something that always sticks with you when, when you’re, you don’t know how you’re supposed to be treated. Thankfully, totally, like, I didn’t always behave well. I’m not gonna say that I was always like, you know. Yeah. And so thank you, I’m hearing you, I am hearing you. And then the other piece that I love is connecting on an interview. I think when you just can tell this is going to be such a good interview, and people are going to like it and it’s just going to help people. I am so happy doing what I’m doing. Sometimes I still wake up in the morning and I’m like, Am I really able to do this? You know, it feels a bit scary for me.

Kelly Meerbott: I love it. I love it. I love it. And that resonates with me so much because I get that too when people will say like there’s a video out there of a colonel talking about how I’ve changed people’s lives. Like when he mentioned that I was the keynote speaker at the SOC commanders keynote conference in Fort Bragg last May. He says, “Wow. Who are you talking about? You know it’s one of those pinch me feelings but is rooted in an impostor because I’m like, I haven’t done enough. I’m not at Moore’s Law. I’m not working with Harvard like I clearly haven’t done enough. You know what I mean? Like, do you get those moments when you’re like…

Morra Aarons-Mele: That’s the anxious achiever in me. I feel it every day. It’s this constant feeling of never being enough. I’ve talked to people who are CEOs, famous athletes, and they still feel that way. So, it’s not about objective reality. It’s about the stories we tell ourselves.

Kelly Meerbott: Yes. And it’s about unpacking those narratives and figuring out their origins. Like, my friend recently shared that she’s pregnant after undergoing IVF. Instead of being ecstatic for her, I was upset because she didn’t tell me first. It made me reflect and realize my feelings were rooted in being excluded by my family. Thankfully, after a heartfelt conversation with her, we cleared the air. Had this happened when I was younger, I might have internalized these feelings and been upset for weeks.

Morra Aarons-Mele: I completely relate. I often discuss family systems in my book. We all come from a family system where we play certain roles. I’ve always been the overfunctioner, diving into problems and taking on too much, which often means someone else in my life becomes an under-functioner. Recognizing these roles and addressing them is critical, especially when working with someone who has historically under-functioned.

Kelly Meerbott: It’s such a profound conversation. By the way, congratulations on winning an award for your podcast at the annual Mental Health America conference.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Thank you! Yes, I won the media award for my podcast. It emphasizes how essential mental health is, especially in the workplace.

Kelly Meerbott: Yet, so many business leaders don’t prioritize their team’s mental health, often creating toxic environments in the name of business and profit. Despite evidence showing that healthy employees are more productive and profitable. So, is this attitude changing? And if not, how do we address it?

Morra Aarons-Mele: I believe it has started to change. Yes, statistically, there’s a significant shift. Many large, reputable companies now provide substantial mental and behavioral health benefits. They might offer resources like Employee Assistance Programs (EAP) or subscriptions to platforms like BetterHelp. They train their managers and promote mental health initiatives. But what hasn’t changed, and may be worsening, is the day-to-day pressures employees face. It’s often said that people don’t leave companies; they leave bosses. Many managers want to support their teams but feel overwhelmed and resource-deprived themselves. And underlying all this are systemic issues like racism, patriarchy, and bias, leading to anxiety for many who constantly feel they must over-perform. But these are issues we can address.

Kelly Meerbott: Absolutely. And we have the solutions. Reflecting on my own experience during the pandemic, my business thrived. However, many of my high-level clients, including those in the government, confessed they felt traumatized and burnt out. As a coach, while I’m not a therapist, I recognize the importance of discussing these feelings. Sometimes, just giving someone space to express themselves can relieve so much pressure.

Morra Aarons-Mele: I think people feel seen. I did an event last week for a major, major American corporation that has gone through a lot of layoffs and handled the layoffs, I would say, universally has been acknowledged as pretty poorly. And I couldn’t believe at some level that they called me, and I’m so honored to get to speak to people, and I only got to spend an hour with them. So who knows how much I can do. But I think that the team who organized the event felt really good. Like they had finally been able to make an inroad. And they did something really nice, which is after I spoke, they brought up HR to talk about what was available for people, to discuss what level of care was available for people at certain levels of need. And I always like when companies do that, because I think that it’s one thing to talk about it. But people ultimately, and a manager’s role, ultimately is to facilitate access here and what you need. The thing though, is that every manager, every individual, everyone can start today by simply respecting people’s boundaries, respecting their time, respecting our basic human need for agency and autonomy — and paying people fairly. Yeah. I mean, huge mental health dividends, if you did all that.

Kelly Meerbott: I know. I know, and more productivity, and by the way more profit to your bottom line

Morra Aarons-Mele: 100%. The more we argue about the bottom line, the less good it does, you know. I was part of the workplace flexibility movement for many years. And for decades before the pandemic, people would argue that flexible work is better for your bottom line, people are more engaged, blah, blah, blah. Nobody really listened. Some of the big accounting firms said it was great. And then the pandemic happens, and everyone has to go work at home overnight for knowledge workers, and it’s like, hey, guess what? So sometimes, you just, you know, the more you focus on the bottom line and the benefit to people in power, it’s almost like they just don’t listen.

Kelly Meerbott: No, they don’t, you know. So it’s kind of interesting, pivot this to this question. So you shared a blog post recently on LinkedIn about considering a return to in-house work. As a fellow entrepreneur, like an entrepreneur for 15 years as of January next year, I can’t imagine returning to having a boss and what’s driving you to consider getting a job in-house.

Morra Aarons-Mele: That was the most raw and vulnerable post I have put up because it felt like I was admitting failure to people. Because, like you, I’ve been an entrepreneur for 17 years. And as I wrote, like, I look – I’m super successful as are you. I’m successful. I sold a company. I’m, you know, I’m on your podcasts. I’m successful. And yes. I think also because I’m pivoting careers, and I’m 46 years old, and I have three kids to put through college. I have realities. Yeah. And being an entrepreneur and starting afresh is exhausting and scary and the economy’s not great. And you know what? Sometimes I’m like, Oh, wow, look, I could have long term disability insurance, I could have a 401K match. I think about that. Now, I never used to, I mean, for me, I always say independence is my number one value at work. And that is why I stayed on my own for so long, I had to have a dependency to take care of my mental health. And also just because I’m a rebellious personality, but I’m like, You know what Maura? Like, maybe it would be nice.

Kelly Meerbott: I mean, listen, I’ll admit, I think about it all the time. If you do, if a big tech firm came to me and was like, be an in-house coach, I’m like, okay. Now, let me say, wouldn’t be that easy, have to be the money would have to be there. There’d have to be certain things, not just table stakes, it would have to be wild like, wagyu, you know, hand-fed grass-fed beef. You know, but I listen, I think about it. You know, I mean, I have a huge team. They’re all 1099s. And I think about that. And I think about the freedom it also gives you of knowing that a steady paycheck coming in sometimes. I mean, I remember in 2009, when I started this business, I went to this talk by an economist at Old Dominion University. And he said, How many of you in here like the merry go round? We put our hands up. And he said, How many of you like the roller coaster? We put our hands up. And he said, those of you that like the merry go round, the exit’s in the back, because being an entrepreneur is like white-knuckling it on a roller coaster and he wasn’t wrong. He’s not wrong.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Absolutely, it’s such a roller coaster. I mean, the highs are incredible, and the lows can be devastating. And while there’s such an allure and beauty to being your own boss, the stability and the structure of working for someone else can be so enticing, especially as priorities and life situations change. The consistent paycheck, benefits, not worrying about every detail of your business. Sometimes, it’s nice to think about just focusing on one role, and not wearing all the hats. But then, there’s always that tug of the independence and the freedom that comes with entrepreneurship. It’s a constant push and pull.

Kelly Meerbott: Yes, it really is. And I think anyone who’s been an entrepreneur for a significant amount of time, no matter how successful, has had those moments of doubt or reflection where they ask, “Am I doing the right thing? Would it be easier or better to just go back into the corporate world?” It’s natural, especially when you face challenges. But what keeps most of us going is that deep-rooted passion and belief in what we’re doing.

But, and here’s the thing, there is literally no judgment. I could tell by reading that post that it was hard for you. I mean, it resonated. I mean, people like to incorporate, or like, I’m just gonna jump ship and make my side hustle my business. I’m like, okay, good luck with that.

Morra Aarons-Mele: No, I got so much feedback from people, really successful ones, people like me, who are always out there talking about how great they are. And I think that it’s again, something that is hidden that we don’t talk about. For many people who are on their own, or coaches or consultants who have small businesses, we live in this FOMO social media culture. Part of your job as someone with a personal brand is to make your life look aspirational. Yes, that’s really easy. It doesn’t take much to make your life look really cool. The reality behind it is not always that cool.

Kelly Meerbott: I went through this whole thing where after spin class, I would do these videos of me red faced and sweating with no makeup because I wanted to show the good and the bad. I would go on video and just cry for things that upset me because I feel like social media is so curated. I interviewed Leonard Brody last week, and I asked him about entrepreneurs. He mentioned there are no good and bad days, just dumpster fires and confetti every day. He said that when an entrepreneur that wants funding says they’re “killing it,” he knows they’re lying. It’s just the society we live in, and it was amazing to me that someone like him said that. I think that all the time. When people pitch me saying, “we’re killing it with this business,” I always question, “but are you?”

Morra Aarons-Mele: Really? Maybe they are. The other thing I want to say is, you know, and I really feel strongly about this, and this is a big piece of what Hiding in the Bathroom is about, is that we think entrepreneurs need to be the kind of people who go to seminars where they hear the roller coaster man. I would have been that person who got up and left. Like, oh, no, I need to run because I’m so anxious all the time. Yeah. But I was, I’m a good entrepreneur. Because frankly, my anxiety makes me a good entrepreneur, mind to oh, I don’t want people listening to be like, Oh, I don’t like risk. I’m not. I’m like, I’m not like YOLO you can be a good entrepreneur. Absolutely. Being a good entrepreneur is not about crushing it and going in and pitching VCs, most I venture to say, most of your listeners are not going to be raising venture capital anytime soon. So, you know, I just want to be realistic, and people who are anxious often make really great entrepreneurs.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, and I will tell you when I was in that room, I didn’t leave because I thought everyone else was staying. Deep down, I preferred a more relaxed approach.

We’re in a time crunch, and I’m wondering, what’s next for you? What are you dreaming about? What do you want to do next?

Morra Aarons-Mele: I’m trying to figure out the business model of the anxious achiever. I have faith in my abilities, and I’m open to possibilities. If there’s an opportunity to work with a company to address mental health, I’m up for it. I’m evaluating if I want to return to digital marketing or political consulting. I’m enjoying my book, teaching MBA students, and exploring the academic angle. The book resonates with high achieving graduate students, law students, MBA students, and med students. I’m passionate about that, as I love school.

Kelly Meerbott: I love learning too. If someone offered me a million dollars to attend school, I’d gladly take it.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Oh my god, are you kidding? I would love it.

Kelly Meerbott: So, how can we best support you right now? What can we do to support you in what you’re trying to discover?

Morra Aarons-Mele: That’s an amazing question. Buying the book and listening to the podcast are great ways. If anyone has ideas or opportunities where I could contribute, I’d appreciate it. I’m fully booked for the rest of the year, but I’m allowing myself time to figure out my direction for 2024 and beyond.

Kelly Meerbott: I aim to take a break from Thanksgiving week to New Year’s, and it’s intimidating.

Morra Aarons-Mele: I’m still working extensively. I cannot not work.

Kelly Meerbott: I feel the same way. A six-week break feels enormous.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Dare yourself.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, yeah. I told my therapist about it, and she said I could wake up and do whatever I want. I was like… um, what does that mean? I mean, I know what that means. But um, okay, so thank you so much. We’ll wrap up with some rapid fire questions, okay?

So, what’s your favorite comfort food?

Morra Aarons-Mele: Um, pasta with cheese? Yeah.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Okay, totally could see that. What books are on your nightstand right now?

Morra Aarons-Mele: I am reading a lot of fiction. So I am reading Emma Cline’s The Guest, which is a big summer novel, and I am also reading an awesome series of books by a woman I just interviewed, called Communicate Like a Buddhist, which is about intentional and mindful communication. And I love her stuff. Cynthia Kane, K-A-N-E.

Kelly Meerbott: What songs are on your playlist?

Morra Aarons-Mele: My playlist is a joint effort. Because usually when I listen to it, it’s with the kids in the car. So it’s kind of hilarious. It’s everything from like Jackson Browne for my husband, to Taylor Swift for my daughter,

Kelly Meerbott: So, she’s Swifty?

Morra Aarons-Mele: She is, but she’s like, you know, we both enjoy it. And then my son is really into hip hop, and then my other son likes New Wave stuff, so it’s it’s very broad ranging and I quite enjoy it.

Kelly Meerbott: So if you had a theme song, what would it be?

Morra Aarons-Mele: Well, I just have a new theme song, which I did. When I was speaking at Disney. Recently, they played Louisa’s song from Encanto “Under the Surface”, which is all about her perfectionism and her relentless hard work and the pressure building. And I was like, oh my god, this is my theme song.

Kelly Meerbott: Oh, great. I love that. Okay, what are you most grateful for at this moment right now?

Morra Aarons-Mele: I’m so grateful because I’m going to leave you and go have dinner with my son at a nice restaurant.

Kelly Meerbott: Yay. And hopefully have pasta with cheese.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Well, sushi, so probably not. But that’ll be good, too.

Kelly Meerbott: Morra, thank you. Thank you for being you. You matter so much. And your work is so important. And I’m so grateful that you took the time to spend with us and share some nuggets of wisdom. And I’m just grateful at this moment in time with you. So if somebody wanted to reach out if a company wanted to call you about working on the anxious achiever internally, your book your first speaking gig or come on your podcast, how do we do that?

Morra Aarons-Mele: You can go to my website theanxiousachiever.com or you can just find me on LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn, come talk to me.

Kelly Meerbott: And we can get, as the kids say, we can get up in your DMs?

Morra Aarons-Mele: You can, they’re open.

Kelly Meerbott: I’m so not cool. So like it’s not that, wrong. Please don’t blow my DMs. But thank you again and thank you to our audience for listening. It’s our intention on Hidden Human to inspire you to go out and have authentic conversations to deepen the connections in your life.

Thank you so much for listening and make it a great day.

Morra hidden human banner 1600 × 475 px) (1600 × 750 px) (Instagram Story) (616 × 800 px)

Share Post:

More Posts & Podcasts