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[/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][divider line_type=”Full Width Line” line_thickness=”1″ divider_color=”default” animate=”yes” delay=”50″][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row type=”in_container” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” scene_position=”center” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” row_border_radius=”none” row_border_radius_applies=”bg” overlay_strength=”0.3″ gradient_direction=”left_to_right” shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column_text]Jenna Arnold is the author of Raising Our Hands, an educator, social entrepreneur, activist and mother who lives in New York City with her husband and two children. Jenna was one of the National Organizers of the Women’s March in 2017 and Oprah named her as one of her “100 Awakened Leaders who are using their voice and talent to elevate humanity”. For her work as the co-founder of ORGANIZE—an organization focused on ending the waitlist for organ transplants in the US, Jenna was named one of Inc Magazine’s “20 Most Disruptive Innovators” and the New York Times called it one of “the biggest ideas in social change”. Jenna created the hit TV show on MTV, ‘Exiled!’ which took spoiled American teenagers to live with indigenous cultures around the world and while at the United Nations, Jenna created multi-platform programming for MTV and Showtime with A-list celebrities like Jay-Z and Angelina Jolie. Jenna sits on the board of the Sesame Workshop Leadership Council and is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. Her first book, Raising Our Hands, about how white women can stop avoiding hard conversations, start accepting responsibility, and find their place on the new frontlines (June 2020) debuted on a series of bestseller lists, including Forbes’ ‘Anti-racism for White People Resource List’ and received praise saying it “is one of the white privileged voices we should be reading” by Porchlight.[/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row type=”full_width_background” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” scene_position=”center” top_padding=”0″ bottom_padding=”7%” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” row_border_radius=”none” row_border_radius_applies=”bg” class=”custom-p” overlay_strength=”0.3″ gradient_direction=”left_to_right” shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none” shape_type=””][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”left-right” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][toggles style=”default”][toggle color=”Default” title=”Episode Transcription”][vc_row_inner column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” text_align=”left”][vc_column_inner column_padding=”padding-3-percent” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column_text]Introduction: Welcome to Hidden Human. The podcast where we explore the stories behind the business leader, get ready to hit insights from business leaders, speaking candidly about how they became who they are today and the lessons they learned along the way. And now here’s your host leadership coach and speaker Kelly Meerbott.
Kelly Meerbott: Welcome to the space where we reveal our personal humanity to reconnect with our shared humanity. It is my honor. Pleasure, and humble gratitude to this person, Jenna Arnold, who is the author of raising our hands. I’m going to read the whole title, how white women can stop avoiding hard conversations, start accepting responsibility and find our place on the new lines. Jenna, you are amazing. And I have been following you since I found your book a couple of months ago, and I’ll tell you how I did that in a second, but thank you so much. I know how time impoverished you are. So the, this is so valuable and I, I am completely fangirling all over you and I apologize. I’m like, yay. Thank you. No, I, I thank you so much. Yeah. So, okay. So here’s how this started. So, and I’m big in giving credit where credit is due.
Kelly Meerbott: So Kelly Sorg and Aurora Archer from The Opt-In and I were talking when, and Doug and I were having a debate. So correct me if I say this incorrectly, because I’m going off of Maya Rudolph’s interpretation, which was my name is Kamilah and rhymes with Pamela, but I understand it’s Kamala. So when Kamala Harris was announced as VP, I called Kelly and Aurora and I was like, okay, what do we think about this? And here’s why, because I have several friends and colleagues in the black community who were like, we’d never vote for her as president because she was da and she was with the police. Right. Okay. So they’re like, you need to start talking about this Kelly. And I was like, no, I’m not educated enough to talk about politics, check one. Right? Okay. So the negative paragraph chapter two, right? Okay.
Kelly Meerbott: So the next day I opened my front door in Narberth Pennsylvania, and this is sitting on my front door with a note from our gorgeous friends that says, Kell, thank you for not hiding your humanity and sharing it with us. We love you, Aurora and Kelly. So now that they’ve given this to me, I have to read it right. But I’m a nerd and I move a lot. So I was like, I got it downloaded on audible. Right? So I downloaded it and began listening to it. And then I began to highlight and notate in this beautiful, gorgeous tome that everybody needs to buy and read everybody. So that’s how you came into my purview. And I also want to thank you for giving me the vocabulary around cognitive acrobatics, because I do my God. Isn’t that such a brilliant
Jenna Arnold: Term? Bye. I’m so grateful to Priya Fielding. Same the researcher out at Stanford who came up with that. And it’s just, so whenever I think of it, I’m like, Oh yeah, there’s the Cartwheel that we want to get out of whatever we don’t want to do.
Kelly Meerbott: So, okay. So I have so much to so many questions. I have a million questions. So we’ve got like what? 45 minutes. Okay. So first things first you are amazing. I mean, I read your, your bio. You’ve done so many things. I mean, like I said, I was going to start our interview by saying, could you please tell me how to get to Sesame street? Cause you sit on their board. But the other thing we,
Jenna Arnold: I’m going to drag Sesame street to the entire world. As soon as we’re done, whatever behemoths we have ahead of us in the next seven days
Kelly Meerbott: Makes me so happy. We also have something in common because you went to university of Miami, correct. In South Florida. So I grew up about an hour North of there and I was like, Oh look, okay. So how young were you when this activist energy awoken you? So usually from my work as an executive coach and in the psychology field, typically between eight and 14, something defining happens in people’s lives to kind of inform what they’re doing today. Did anything like that happen for you?
Jenna Arnold: I have two different answers to that question. The first one is the one that I have been using publicly because it’s sort of the one that I can remember the most as being the quote unquote defining moment. But then there’s also been something that’s been happening in parallel real-time as in last night, that’s helping me clear the cobwebs of this sort of perspective development as I’m watching it in my five-year-old daughter ever. Okay. So the one that I don’t know if I referenced it in the book or not, but like it is where I go in. A lot of public conversations is when I was 12, 11 or 12 or so I was in Mexico, for a class trip, to Abington friends school and we went and did this exchange program. And we were in Mexico city and we were in a van full.
Jenna Arnold: There was like 10, 15 kids in the van. And we came across this like very intense traffic jam where it was like one of those traffic jams where everyone was like moving an inch. And the cards were jerking to try to like get through this bottleneck. And we were in it for like an hour and a half and everyone kept sitting up to see what was ahead of them. And as we inch closer, literally it was like inch by inch. I remember being so nauseous. I noticed that the reason that there was a traffic jam is because on this very specific highway, there’s no shoulder like we have in the States. And there was a gentleman in a wheelchair, wheeling himself down the highway. But because there was like, there was, he was in the middle, not in the middle of the lane, but on like the outside of the outside lane, people were having to go around him.
Jenna Arnold: And as we were sort of zooming by all of these things happened in my head simultaneously where I was like, wait a, there’s a man in a wheelchair on a highway that’s so incredibly dangerous. Why doesn’t he get up onto the curb? And as that all happened, I looked to see where the next relief for him would be where the next safe spot would be for him to get up onto a curb. And they noticed that all of the curves within that next a hundred yard stretch, none of them had a ramp on the corner like we do here in the States. And I remember thinking like, Oh my gosh, like, this is a solvable problem. Like this is like just gotta add some rope ramps. Right. And, and, and thinking like, Oh my gosh, there’s a problem that can be solved here for like the benefit of everybody, particularly the one in greatest danger.
Jenna Arnold: Exactly. So it was sort of like my first human rights violation that I saw. And obviously I didn’t have the language for that then. Right. And so it sort of set me on this path of like, well, what else is solvable that we can just do and take care of? And that like type a part of me is like, just grab the bull by the horns and like solve the problem type thing. And I, I tried to do that throughout my life and my personal life and my professional life. Sometimes it’s work, sometimes it’s backfired, but that was like a real moment for me. And that was the first time I was in a third world country. And I came back to the States and like that Friday night I was going out to dinner with my friends and I was like, Hey guys.
Jenna Arnold: And I tried to tell them about what I had seen the poverty, the hope, the beauty, that the potential of this specific situation. And they were like, great. Did you hear that? Brooke and Travis hooked up at the movies? And I was like, Oh, they don’t care. Oh, they don’t, they don’t care because they didn’t see it. They don’t care. And then I was like, okay, I’m going to make sure everybody sees what they need to. And then, so that was sort of a key moment, but what I’m finding fascinating being the mom of a five-year-old daughter who I’m totally brainwashing
Kelly Meerbott: Wait, slow down. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by brainwashed?
Jenna Arnold: Okay. So, so, you know, there’s a lot of discussion now about how to weave in complicated conversations about race, gender, class, disability, all of those kinds of things, quickly and early with children. And I come to parenting with two degrees in elementary education understanding, and I’ve always was obsessed with how young brains scaffold information, how they process information and apply it to their own lives. And so, like, I, I I’m proud of myself because I both am like in it with my kids, but I can also take a step back and like, look at how I’m experimenting with them too. Right. I do a lot of that as I’m raising a son, like, am I calling him more than I called her? You know, like, it doesn’t mean that like in the minute I’m not still like smothering him with kisses, but I’m able to like play both roles of like trying to play both roles of a bit of an observer and also just being a Realtime mom.
Jenna Arnold: So anyway, so my daughter, who’s five, she’s been obviously watching me write this book for years. And I went and did research on the Navajo reservation about a year ago. And I had spoke in depth with her then about what happened to the indigenous here in the U S and I started with that subject because it’s one that I’m particularly passionate about. She was coming to an age when she was able to understand the language a little bit more. And I was off to New Mexico, you know, and like deep into some of this research. So it started off with like the indigenous were here. First Europeans came and they did really not nice things. And we talked about some of those, not nice things in detail. And so, so she’s been asking me since we started having this conversation a year ago, like one of them was like, well, mom is mama a European.
Jenna Arnold: Yeah, she is, this is the country. That’s her family’s friend, dah, dah, dah. And then like, she would go through all like every like couple of weeks it would come up a clarifying question like, well, am I a European then? Well, yes, you have European ancestry is. And the reason that we’re here is because my mom came here and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And then last minute, two nights ago, she got out of the bath. And again, right when I’m like, yeah, she goes, mom, if I were a European here, when, that was happening with the indigenous, I would tell all the indigenous that they can stay. And I would try to tell all of the Europeans, I forgot what her work, but it was like, something like that off or in my words, it would be chill the out. I dunno if you can curse on your podcast, but,
Kelly Meerbott: …it was funny cause I was asking Doug, cause I had a client this week. Put me in check for saying, Fuck . And it’s like my favorite word. And sometimes yeah…
Jenna Arnold: No, we need, we need a better word now, as far as I’m concerned, like I need something that’s more guttural. So anyway, so I, so I think to answer your question is like, sure, there was that moment in Mexico, what’s happening with my daughter. And when I’m watching, I can relate to, because I remember the first time I learned about the enslaved in this country and I have the drawing from fifth grade of when I drew a picture of a bunch of white kids in the classroom and a black kid standing by a tree who wasn’t able to go into that white classroom. And I remember them being like this doesn’t make sense. It, in my head, I was like, well, if I were alive, then I would have him come over and I would give him all my books and we would play cards.
Jenna Arnold: We would play UNO for hours. He would be my friend and I would hide him. Like, I’d hide him if I had to. And so I’m watching her grapple with the stories of our country and I’m can empathize with her empathy and her turmoil around her legacy, her blood, what has happened as a five-year-old. She says that wouldn’t be me. And now you have plenty of scholars who would be like, well, that’s your first sign of white guilt. Yup, absolutely. And it’s also the first sign of like extraordinarily exhausting empathy of the, not rightness of what has transpired and then what we’re supposed to do. So to answer your question, was there a moment between, did you say eight and 14? Yeah. So there was like that Mexico moment I can talk about when I’m like, Oh, there’s solvable problems in the world, but the truth is, is like, I have been like so many other Americans hearing these stories, starting as a child being really uncomfortable with it and not knowing what to do with it and starting to role-play hypothetical’s like my daughter Alvarez.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. And I mean, I, I grew up in South Florida about an hour North of Miami where the diversity was great, but I will tell you my education was whitewashed. And I had this conversation with my mother the other day. I was like, do you know what I learned about Harriet Tubman? She’s like what I said, she was part of the underground railroad. That’s it? Not that you miss the most wanted woman in America, not the fact that you dressed up him as a man and went back to the place where she was wanted to re none of this. And it, just, to me, it boggles my mind that people, when they discover these things, aren’t more outraged I guess, is, is like, why, why aren’t we holding the educators accountable? And again, there’s all systems that kind of weave into each other. So it’s it isn’t that simple, but I mean, I can empathize with ever end with you. And, and I have to tell you, please deliver this message ever tell her that I know unicorns have pink and purple manes….
Jenna Arnold: No, I will let her know that she’s really she’s really focused on the tooth fairy these days. So really? Yeah. Unicorns, a little old news now
Kelly Meerbott: We’ll just make sure anybody who’s listening, make sure you follow Jen on Instagram. Cause I saw ever climbed the wall the other day, which was hilarious. She you’re like what’s that dance move called? She’s like climbing the wall gum mom and Jenna’s handle is @itsJenna. That’s that’s on Instagram, right? @itsjenna. Okay. So all right. You’re raising Ever. And, and Atlas Oz, which my curiosity and I ha I’m just an inquiring minds. Like I inquire into everything. So hopefully that doesn’t offend you, but these are unique names, right? And for me, there’s such power in naming things. Where did you come up with these beautiful names forever and Atlas.
Jenna Arnold: So ever ever sort of fell in my lap in the ways that like, I think Holy names and Holy language and Holy words. And obviously I’m totally biased. She’s my kid. And I have to deal with the name for the rest of her life. So I’m going to define it as fully. But one of my friends, Dan, died on Mount Everest. The April before ever was born. And I had been wrestling with a name like ever since I’ve always been like this now
Kelly Meerbott: Mystical
Jenna Arnold: Thing that humans put them, like slam themselves against to see if they can survive. And like, I think there’s a component of like, my curiosity would be like, well, how much can we put ourselves through to prove to ourselves that we can survive? And like, that’s a little bit of like a bit of what activism is, right? Like a bit of what the structure of our country is a bit of what marriage is. And, and so I’ve always been intrigued by Everest and then he died in an avalanche and while he was there, he was raising money for this orphanage that he and I both worked closely with. It was a fundraising client for, for incredibly poor children on the Indian Chinese border and Tibetan border, I should clarify. And, and so I knew there was that.
Jenna Arnold: And then when she came out as a woman, as a girl, I was like, okay, I don’t want Everest, but I love ever. And her middle name is ALU LA, which means first born in Arabic, the first female born of a generation in Arabic. And she’s likely going to be the well she’s definitively the oldest of her generation in her mom’s family. That’s expected to be like add, I’m very, very close with my family. I’m the oldest of my generation, she’ll be the oldest of her. So Alula means the first born or the first one to go first Arabic, but ever in Hebrew, we found out after we named her was the original name of the Hebrews when they crossed over the Euphrates into the promised land. So ever is the name of the Hebrew. There were, was the name of the Jews or some it’s, something like that.
Jenna Arnold: I should know it a little bit more clearly. And then also means like the first across over. So I, I just keep thinking, like, it’s so wild and this was like born in 2015 and like the Obama era, like we only had a couple of things to do left. Right. Like, but she, everything about her name is about crossing over and being, you know, one of the first to do that type thing. And then Atlas Oz, I am an astrophysics major by background. I’m obsessed with maps. I’m obsessed with the stars…then Oz is after my husband’s maternal grandfather.
Kelly Meerbott: I love that. I love that there’s such power in names. Isn’t there?
Jenna Arnold: This is actually a crazy story. As my husband’s grandfather was he and his brother Boomi were Nazi hunters. Like after that that movie with Brad Pitt
Kelly Meerbott: Inglorious bastards. Yes. Holy Shit!
Jenna Arnold: Cow. I know, I know. So he’s named after one of those dudes that was, again, I’m like your Quaker, we don’t gun, we don’t sword that he’s named after Nazi Hunter. So yeah.
Kelly Meerbott: So my name in celtic means warrior woman. And I was like, of course, of course I’m always fighting for people. So I’m sure that you probably know about Walter Wallace Jr.. Here in Philly. And you were, you grew up in Elkins park, so you understand like the dynamics in Philadelphia our poor city is, is hurting big time. If you were living here and you were, let’s just say, I don’t know, a key person that makes the city of Philadelphia move. What would you do? What would be your first step towards healing? Because my thought, gentlemen, please jump in and tell me I’m wrong. That’s fine. But I feel like we’re a bunch of walking, wounded, projecting our pain onto other people,
Jenna Arnold: But not just here in Philly. Right? Like everywhere. Everywhere is like a gushing wound. Someone said to me last night, they were like, well, everyone’s still, you know, wounded from 2016. I’m like, I haven’t even gotten stitches in my one from 26 minus. Exactly. Right, exactly. So like, I don’t, what would I say to Philadelphia? Philadelphia is the Latin root word. It’s something like love and brotherly love and like human love to let me strip the patriarch out of it, love that, you know, from human to human love and that is absolutely what we’re about. Right. But we have to go through this reckoning. I don’t care if it is in Wisconsin or Philadelphia or Detroit, or, you know, my Kush suburb of Elkins park, like put it all out, get it all out. Everything has to come to the surface. There is extraordinary pain in this city, as there is in so many other cities around the country.
Jenna Arnold: And, you know, I, I would love to, and it’s not ready for this part of the conversation, but at some point it will be part of the conversation to talk about the fact that this country, the original documents. And I’m, I’m sort of trying to pull people out of like this constitution being this like God’s gift to humanity and really just be like, the constitution was a business plan, right? The original business plan of this country was written here and the original business plan of this country calls black folk three-fifths to human called the indigenous savages and have exactly zero pronouns referencing she and her. No kidding. So like the business plan was written on this soil. So we have a little bit of not reconciliation to do, but constellation to do, there’s no re going back to where we were. Cause it’s not like we were ever honky-dory to begin.
Jenna Arnold: And Philadelphia as a again, piece of soil was the capital of the country and was a massive port for people who were in voluntarily taken from their families and distributed here. So like what you’re seeing now, isn’t just the spilled blood of Wallace or the horror of his mother watching, or the injustice that has spilled into our public schools and into our EDRs and into our blighted buildings compared to the cul-de-sacs in, you know, Montgomery County, 40 minutes North, and that kind of financial diversity. It also has to do with the horror that existed and seeped into the soil here from hundreds of years ago. So the reckoning that’s happening, I’m like, Oh, go get it.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. And I’ll bring this up to you because you’ve referenced this in your book about, you know, having a Rolodex full of like taro cards, seekers, and readers and all that. And I was like, cool. Meets you. So a couple of years
Jenna Arnold: Have an amazing one right now, by the way, do
Kelly Meerbott: You, I have a great one too. Her name is Teresa Reed out of in Michigan
Jenna Arnold: Miller. You can find her on the worldwide web. Okay.
Kelly Meerbott: And then I also work with Tiffany, Oh my gosh. Cooper. She’s a shaman out of Yardley and she’s incredible. And both of them independently of one another, like I would say a year and a half ago I was doing a reading and they were like a big reckonings coming. I’ll know what it is, but it a big reckonings coming. So when all of this started, I was like, yup, here it is — then at the beginning of the pandemic, I heard that the root of the Greek, the Greek root of the word crisis means to sift. And I was like, Oh yeah, lifting out all the . Yeah. But, okay. So as white women, because you know, one of my favorite quotes and I read it on Instagram the other week, let me see if I can find it. Wait a second.
Kelly Meerbott: It was something about, hold on. It was about white women being the most powerful consumer and political, you know, demographic in the country. Tell me more about that. Like, okay. So one of the things that you woke me up too in Aurora and Kelly woke me up too in the opt-in woke me up to is the fact that I have to use my voice and my platform to elevate and give credit to, and push, not push word. That doesn’t sound right, but like walk alongside and elevate the work that people have been doing all along to heal this country. Right. And to heal the world. But there are times Jenna, when I sit there and I go, Oh my God, how can we heal black lives matter? And the division that’s been sewed in this country by this political and this and this and this. And I’m like, okay, I’m going to step back and just focus on myself and healing myself in order to move this forward. I mean, help. Like, is that the right perspective?
Jenna Arnold: I mean, like you just asked a question that’s like worthy of like 15 dissertations. So I’m surely not going to be able to answer all of it. In one response, but I would say this, like, I was always cheerleading Gandhi, right. Like my whole life. And it wasn’t until I was like knee deep into my book when specifically when I got to chapter 10 and the publisher was like, okay, Jenna. So where’s chapter 10 where all the things that we’re going to like quickly turn can do and solve all the problems in our own hearts and our own minds and in our world, like how do we do it? What’s the roadblock. I’m assuming I was staring at a blank screen when it was time for me to come. I’m staring at a blank screen when it was time for me to write chapter 10, because I don’t have any turnkey solutions except, Oh, you have to be that change you wish to see in the world.
Jenna Arnold: Oh, that’s what Gandhi was talking about. Dan. It clearly missed that for the first 20 years of my life. Now I got to like reprocess it. So there’s very specific work that folks need to do. Everybody needs to do in terms of catching biases, asking harder questions about the cognitive acrobatics that we perform to get us out of like holding our husbands accountable or like doing all the Christmas, present, shopping, or doing all this stuff that like lots of women just do, you know, the excuses we make for our sons, et cetera, et cetera. So there’s a lot of that that has to happen. There’s the deeper stuff. That’s like, wait a second. How am I going to operate as a kind human being in the world, particularly when I’m cranking, I don’t feel like being nice for me. The question that I want to pose to everybody is like, how are you going to bring community back into each other?
Jenna Arnold: And like, this is my new shtick. Like, yes. Great read my book. Awesome. Thank you. However, what are you doing to build more community around you and not just like the Kelly and errors of the world, the people who are on your text message, but like how, how are the tentacles of your world going into spaces that they might not normally not for the sake of being like, I need more Muslim friends, I need more friends with disabilities. I need more did it at like, not for the sake of that, but just to break out of the bubble, that is the one of three networks that we have, the algorithms that’s on our social media as you know, the, the families that we’re in. So, so there’s, there’s like real life shifting structure, shifting work that has to happen. As you mentioned, American women control the largest part of the economy.
Jenna Arnold: And like, people are like, how does that add up? I’m like, how many men do you know who buy the toothpaste for the home? Right? Or like the toothpaste to the laundry detergent women are really calling most of the shots on the cars. And really, if we’re being honest, they’re buying most of the men’s clothing, except for like the suave male dresser who are like my favorite men’s fashions. My favorite, I can tell when the men are all over it, which is where I can think of like three men. Buy most of the, almost all of the stuff that’s in the house. They make the big decisions on the big purchases too. They often decide the religion and the con specific congregation. They can ultimately influence him, push the direction that kids are going from in different types of education. They just wield so much of the money in ways that they don’t realize my favorite story, just from an example perspective is American idol.
Jenna Arnold: I don’t know if y’all remember that show American Idol competition. There was one episode, every season called idol gives back. And the whole thing was like each one of the contestants was talking about a social issue and they were partnering with a nonprofit. And then you could text a pledge. In one episode of American idol gives back in one random season, they raised $190 million for whatever the issues were that were displayed. I can tell you with absolute confidence that that wasn’t the 13 year olds credit card. And it was unlikely that it was the dad that was giving the credit cards to the kid. It was probably the 13 year old saying, mom, I need the credit card for ax. And she was like, great honey, here. It is. Same thing after the tsunami, um know, same thing after the earthquake in Haiti, we raised as a country, $300 million for a 9 million person country. Right? And that’s because Anderson Cooper and Sandra [inaudible] went down to Port-au-Prince were incredibly generous country. Like very generous. We are willing to give lots of money away to each other. When we see the issue, open our doors more quickly than so many other countries do than so many other folks do in different parts of the country, different parts of the world. One woman that I’m working with, we’re developing television show. And I said that under my breath, I said that under my breast, and no one holds me accountable in case it doesn’t pan out.
Kelly Meerbott: Well, I’m going to tell you, I was a really big fan of exiled. I watched every episode and I didn’t even know until I just read your bio. I was like, Holy WOW,
Jenna Arnold: God, you watch. Is that okay? Anyway, it’s a television show that I created like, yeah,
Kelly Meerbott: It’s bad . And like any spoiled children that you’re having a problem with, make them watch that
Jenna Arnold: Developing another concept. And one of the someone there was this show that she was pitching of, of artists traveling from the East coast to the West coast to with no money in their pocket. And you would have to find their way across the country by like asking people for rides, asking people to stand or their rooms, and then building some piece of art along the way. It was like something like that. And there was a series of producers that she was developing the show with that were from other parts of the world. And they were like, Jenna, they said to this woman, they said you can never produce that show in any other country besides the United States, because only in the United States, could you knock on someone’s door and ask for help? And they would be motivated to help. And I can’t speak to that culture and other parts of the world.
Jenna Arnold: I can only intimately speak to it in the U S but like, that’s why I am. So that’s why I do have hope right now, because no matter what happens, like I’m very frightened. Like I don’t, I’m uneasy. I’m grieving. Even before the, you know, this is we’re recording this days before November 3rd, I’m grieving already because it’s just, this isn’t this isn’t like, okay, great guys, we won a championship. We’ll try again next season. Like, no, this is, this is a really big moment for us. And all of us collectively, I don’t care. Who’s in the oval office, obviously I care. But, but we, we are going to come. We have to come back to each other in ways that are going to that our country ideology, moral, religious defining, right? Like you have to go to that. Trump voter in your cul-de-sac next Thursday does not matter who won and knock on their door and say, Hey, I know we had different perspectives on the president, but I want to co-create with you moving forward. We have to.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. And I will, I will definitely do that. On my street in Montgomery County in Narberth, there are no child support.
Jenna Arnold: Wow. You should sit down to Huntington Valley.
Kelly Meerbott: Well, I just need to drag to Gladwin because there was a sign and I think you’ll get a kick out of it that says Trump Putin 2020. It is what it is. Right. And that’s not funny. Like, it’s really not.
Jenna Arnold: So you know what I did, if you are going to air this before the election, no joke. This is what I did. I took Ever’s mermaid notepad. And it’s a big issue that I am using her mermaid notepad. And it’s like in the shape of a mermaid tail and I’m writing letters to every single one of these people. You can find the letter on my Instagram, you are welcome to copy and paste it. And it says something like we don’t agree who should be in the oval office, but we still should work together to co-create the world. We both care so much about. I see you have a Trump sign out. Like you love this country as much as I do, let’s do this together. And let’s go for a walk after 11 three, and I’ve been putting them in people’s mailboxes to then get reprimanded by my father and husband that you can’t put letters in. People’s mailboxes. Why they technically have to go through the post office. So anyways, so I have now I’ve been making my dad like Chris zigzag across the County, and I’m writing down the address he’s houses and I’m putting letters in the mail to them. Anyway, and I’m giving them my social handle and I’m like, DME, if you want to go for coffee, because like, I don’t need to talk to anyone else. I need to talk to you. We need to come back together. You and I, what was your question was what again?
Kelly Meerbott: Or remember it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. I mean, really, because my thought was, I’m asking you, like, for me, I already know, cause I’ve already started down this path and I’ll tell you a really quick, funny story. So one of my clients, I can’t tell you exactly the branch, but I can tell you I’m working with the us military. Right. And the whole, what we’re working on is, is emotional wellbeing. And George flood was murdered. And then, one of the very first black female leaders wrote, m letter that I’ll, I can send to you. Her name is Donna W. Martin. She’s the head of the military police Academy and basically said, this is why we have to change. So I’m on the, I’m on a zoom call, coaching call with this client. And he’s like, man, I’m, I’m really stressed out.
Kelly Meerbott: I was like, okay, what’s going on? And tell me more about that. And he was like, well, I’ve got to give a brief. And I was like, Terry, 25 years, you am gonna brief, like, I wasn’t being judgy, but I was trying to like kind of light him up. Cause he was really nervous. And he goes, yeah, yeah, no, no, no. I’ve, I’ve given Bruce before he said, but our commanding officer wants me to write a brief and solve DEI. I said, time out, slow down. And she took us to Sesame street. See, I knew we would get to Sesame street. So I looked at him and I go, tell me how old your branch of the military is. And he said, whatever, he said 400 plus years. And I go, okay, you need to tell your commander, you cannot switch policy procedures, you know, organizational culture by the flip of a switch with a brief, you have to evaluate everything. And he said, well, what do you think I should do? I said, be a leader and manage expectations. And that’s what he did, which was great. But I think a great tip for all of us. And I know for me, but tell me from your perspective, we’re a great place to start is just to start this whole journey, the journey DEI black lives matter, raising our hands, whatever we’re where would you start?
Jenna Arnold: There’s no starting. It’s like, it’s like being a mom, right? Like where do you start to be a mom? Right? I don’t, I don’t know. And yeah, it starts when they get out of bed in the morning also starts when they’re sleeping and when you’re packing them lunch. Right. Or it’s for me, you know, this idea of trying to like redefine our character and strive for some false mythical perfection that does not exist. Like if anyone takes anything away, like you got to shut this perfection myth, it does not exist. It is part of white supremacy, patriarchy capitalism. Now just poisoning that is like in your head, you have like a cancer in your brain and try and take it out. But this idea of like when I’m well rested and I wake up with my kids in the morning, I’m like jolly.
Jenna Arnold: When I have to ask them to brush their teeth for the first time, that night I’m particularly snappy. And like who I am in the morning is not going to be the same person that I am that evening. And I think we one have to free ourselves of this belief that there’s a place to start. I think the place to start is to say, I have work. I have to do. And again, like I work is same thing with like work won’t disrupt like social justice, like these works and these words are so few tie up. Like, I don’t even know what they mean, but it’s this idea of like, you know what? I don’t know what the hell I don’t know. And I have to go figure it out. Like that’s where you start. And I’ve written a 380 page book with more sources than like, then I killed like half the rainforest in my bibliography. It’s sufficient for a girl who like, all she cares about is recycling, but I don’t know what I don’t know. Like where am I starting every day. Let’s do, I can answer this for you again. Okay. Where do I start? Every day is at a place of, I don’t know what I don’t know.
Kelly Meerbott: Yep. I agree. I agree. And for me, so where I started was educating myself, like getting the history. Right. You know what I mean?
Jenna Arnold: So, you know, the history is always going to be evolving, right? Like I always say this and I said this in the book, news is the first draft of history. So like, you’re welcome to watch the news tonight. And you’re welcome to read the times or Fox or AP or Reuters, as long as, you know, it’s the first draft of history, right? Like, like when people are like, what’s going on right now, I’m like, I don’t know. I’ll tell you what’s going on right now in 25 years from now, I can tell you what’s happening in this massive reckoning. Is it reckoning or is it like Republic burning? Is there a Republic burning or is it the end of the species? Is it the sure, like there’s, I will tell you when people are like, Oh, you’re an activist. Tell us what that means. I’m like, I’ll tell you if I’m an activist in 10 years from now, like jury is out, you know, like I don’t, I think we can rid ourselves and give ourselves the permission and what I like to call this grace of gray, like sit in the gray of the, I don’t know, ness.
Jenna Arnold: We are, we have been conditioned always. We’ve been conditioned to believe that there’s a perfect answer or a perfect strategy or perfect book podcast, article, whatever it may be. And there just isn’t we have to get very used to sitting in the gray because of the, I don’t, I don’t know. Right? Like I’m really dangerous on a lot of subjects. And there’s so much freedom that I have found. This is selfish and this is selfish of me. I love nothing more now than being able to say, I don’t know because it’s freeing
Kelly Meerbott: Well, and to, to dovetail off of that point, one of my teachers, Byron, Katie says always come from the, I don’t know, mind come from the idle mind. And I remember, I remember giving a talk at Comcast and this guy coming up to me and he’s like, well, Kelly, I loved what you said about the, I don’t know mind, but I can’t say that. And I said, well, tell me what your role is at Comcast. And he like explained us. And I said, well, it sounds like you’re making the simple, complicated. And he goes, I work at Comcast. And I said, okay. Point taken. But I think you’re exactly right. I think it opens up things because if you don’t know, then you can go find out. And if you,
Jenna Arnold: Well, there’s that, but it’s like, it also gives you the freedom to not have to perform, you know, what the hell you’re talking about to yourself? You know? Like that’s one of the things that someone said. Some I get asked all the time. What was the most surprising thing you found in your research? The most rising thing I’ve found in my research was that the, the claim and the hypothesis that so many anti-racist scholars from all the way back from, you know, Malcolm X and MLK to scholars today who were like, Oh, the most dangerous demographic in the country are white liberals, white, progressive folk. And I was like, I didn’t, I wasn’t looking to confirm or deny. I wasn’t looking to confirm or challenge that hypothesis. But every time I left one of those conversations, I’m like, Oh, there’s a lot of those people trying to convince themselves that they are woke, that they know that they got it all together. They love to hear themselves speak. There’s, there’s rarely a ton of active listening happening. And I’m one of those people I need to work on the active listening better. I talk a lot. See, here I am like, it’s this idea of like performing that, you know, something. So you can sit with yourself better. Being able to say, I have no idea. It’s a real gift to give yourself.
Kelly Meerbott: It is. And it’s freeing and people don’t look at you. Like you’re a moron. Like people are afraid of looking stupid by saying that. And it, every time I’ve said that from CEOs of fortune 500 companies to high level military executives to whole, you know, small business owners, if I say, I don’t know, they’re like, okay, let me know when you do. It’s no big deal. And it is freeing and it’s not there isn’t that performance. So I do have a question that, that came from one of the women in my inner circle. And I want to make sure I get to it before we have to say goodbye to you, which I hope isn’t the last time. Cause I really, I just, I don’t know, what’s there, but there’s some energy between us that I can’t put my finger on right now. game whenever.
Kelly Meerbott: Yes, sister, like any time anytime. So my friend Carrie asked me, she said, please ask Jenna why she thinks that we still to this day. And I think I kind of know the answer, but I’m going to say, I don’t know to this day we’re still being labeled and not honored for our merits as individuals, if that makes sense. So like she was saying, why, why aren’t transgender black? What, like, why aren’t we all equal? Why has it taken this long? Why and why can’t we, what is it going to take for us to get to a society where we really are measured on our merits instead of what we look like.
Jenna Arnold: Again, this one there’s probably a 2,500 that’s written about it and there’ll be like 25 cotillion after this moment in time. Right. To really be valued on your merit means that everybody has to be given the right to start at the same spot with the same set of resources. Okay. And that’s an impossibility in a country that already gives an add in an ACE card number of ACE cards to certain demographics, specifically white Christian men.
Speaker 1: Yup.
Jenna Arnold: So merit can only happen if, and don’t let this like be like, Oh, forget it. Well then I can never figure it out. So I’m going to give you what feels like the impossible answer. And then while I’m giving you the impossible answer, I’m going to scramble to try and figure out what’s the doable answer, but you don’t
Kelly Meerbott: Have to scramble for anything like the impossible.
Jenna Arnold: No, it’s totally fine. It’s fine. Cause as I’m going through this too, I’m also like workshopping legitimately, like what the potential path forward. The impossible answer is the following that if we think of two individuals that both their mothers had the same pregnancy care, pregnancy, nutrition, labor, and delivery experience, both of those babies were given the same type of nutrients coming immediately out of the womb were cared for in the same way, had the same time to bond with the mom had the same dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, that they have the same development growing up into childhood. They had access to the same of community care. They have the same access to education and yes, while one of them might’ve started to read later than the other. And while that other one might be a faster runner than the other, that they all kind of evolved in that one of them loved ballet, but the other one loves soccer and all of these kinds of things, flourished and flourish and flourish.
Jenna Arnold: And then both one of them wanted to chase like a history degree and one of them wanted to chase the medicine degree. And then now you have a scholar, a history scholar, and then you have a neurosurgeon assuming that there is this like, Hey Siri, scram, as soon assuming you have, his same basic needs met without the trauma of a culture that says you’re taller. So you’re better. You’re a faster runner or you’re a better athlete. You, mot a better test score on the geometry quiz. You’re probably gonna make more money. Oh, you’re a better singer. So you’re gonna be able to, I don’t know whatever it is. If there isn’t that cultural sub level messaging, that’s also traumatic. Maybe we can have people compete on merit maybe.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, no, I totally get it. And I, and then I know,
Jenna Arnold: And, but I think what they like genuinely, what like the real answer is, is because, and what I’m trying to say is like that can’t happen in a capitalistic. It can’t happen in our capitalist objector. It cannot happen when you have a political party that says the only thing that matters is you, the only thing that matters is your individual ism. And this isn’t to say like, if Kelly is a brilliant violinist and Jenna is an amazing watercolor painter that I don’t mind Kelly to give that beautiful, you know, musical talent to the world as a gift. And that Jenna can paint beautiful paintings. Like, yes, we can prize Kelly’s talent in Jenna’s talent differently and make space for both of them. But the second you say to Kelly, you’re better or worse than because of that individual gift you deserve more or less than because of that individual gift. Well then suddenly things change for Jenna, right? If you Kelly deserves more money because she’s a violinist and then Jenna, who’s an artist Kelly’s going to, then something’s going to be taken away from Jenna. So because we have an individualistic society that says you should be able to keep, you know, you don’t owe anything to anybody, right? It’s not on you to pay any taxes or taxes should be higher or lower. What do you like? Well, I don’t know if we’ve sent her, the us, if we sent her the, we, all the individuals
Kelly Meerbott: Would flourish.
Jenna Arnold: And so I think, I think like the small turnkey now is like, how are we making more space for more types of voices and talents in our communities,
Kelly Meerbott: In our worlds?
Jenna Arnold: How are we not taking up so much space are, you know, as I’m being interviewed on a podcast, but like, you know, how do we move over? Yeah, for sure.
Kelly Meerbott: I feel like, how can we open our arms and embrace them, bring in, you know what I mean? There’s so much like for me, I keep thinking about ego and ego causing separation, because ego feeds into what you talked about in the book, the myth of the scarcity mentality. Like if you get it, then tell it. If Jenny gets it, that means Kelly can’t get it. Or if Jenna gets it, that means there’s less for Kelly, which you and I both know is a horseshit myth. Like it’s, it’s not true. It’s just conditioning. And it’s part of the patriarchy. So I know we’re over time. So I’m going to wrap up with a couple of like, with one sort of long question and three rapid fire questions. So for your great, great, great grandchildren listening to this podcast years from now, what wisdom do you have to impart?
Jenna Arnold: You have everything you need. I love that.
Kelly Meerbott: Okay. So rapid fire questions. First, what books are on your nightstand?
Jenna Arnold: What’s on my nightstand. Okay. Fair, fair. Play by Eve Rodsky, which is about how to be in relationship with the men in your lives, in your homes, homo Deus. But this is like a bit of a sort of geek out a brief history of tomorrow. I love this writer, Morgan Jerkins. I have this book that she wrote a while ago. She’s a new one that just came out. This will be my undoing becoming America, which is cause I’m all about civics. This one by this indigenous scholar, it’s called I’ll go and do more. She’s a Navajo leader, an activist. Like I’ll go into more like, that’s what we’re going to have to do on November before I’ll go and do more. This then the one that’s like real nerdy that nobody else in the country has on their beds is the peculiar mission of a Quaker school. And now Quaker’s a pamphlet, but I had to order it. It says it was a dollar 10 on the cover, but it really was $7 and 50 cents is this idea of like Quakerism and like how to hold the individual and the collective in the same space. So this is, this is the one that like, I have the most notes in. Sorry.
Kelly Meerbott: I love that. No, please. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of apologies. No apologies. I love that because I, I love authors and I think we need to support the ones that we love, including, Hey, if you haven’t bought this book, Janet Arnold raising hands, plugging
Jenna Arnold: Her on, gets subtitle in the world’s
Kelly Meerbott: Changed my life. And
Jenna Arnold: Ladies, we can do this. Okay. So
Kelly Meerbott: Second question. Yes. Go for comfort
Jenna Arnold: Food. Oh, anything with carbohydrates? Like probably my grandmother’s holler recipe or like a bagel or soft pretzel. Let’s just give the nod to Philly. A soft pretzel.
Kelly Meerbott: We love Philly. Okay. What are in your playlist?
Jenna Arnold: My playlist right now, again, I’m so on-brand, I’m listening to this album called this joy, which is by the resistance revival, chorus, which is a group of friends of mine who were some of my co-organizers of the women’s March. And they launched this chorus to bring joy to people because even in the most harming times, if we sent her joy, it’s an act of resistance. And
Kelly Meerbott: Talk about the women’s March. Oh my God. I can kind of talk to you for another three hours.
Jenna Arnold: So, so there’s that. And then there’s like spice girls. There’s spice girls are like really there all the time.
Kelly Meerbott: Okay. So there’s going to be a quick question to dovetail off of that. What was the first song that you ever heard that made the hairs on the back of your neck? Stand up,
Jenna Arnold: Dream on Aerosmith. Yes. My war Blackbird by Beatles. By the Beatles. Yeah.
Kelly Meerbott: Okay. What are you most grateful for in this moment right now?
Jenna Arnold: This exact moment? My, all of the chargers that are keeping my computer on my cell phone is charged.
Kelly Meerbott: Oh, well, thank you for that, Jenna. I adore you. I love the work you’re doing that. You’re going to, you’ve challenged me to do more and rise up and ignore my family members who have given me a good scolding to speak out about the injustices in the world. But you know, my thought is, Hey, if I’m off my family, I’m in the right direction.
Jenna Arnold: That’s my measurement. Probably
Kelly Meerbott: People wanted to reach out for you either for speaking engagements or learning opportunities. How will they get to you? Okay.
Jenna Arnold: So Jen arnold.com, there’s the contact button somewhere on that site. You all can find it. Yeah, we’ll put it in the show notes too. My Instagram handle handle is @itsjenna. I’m not really on Twitter because I really struggle with the interviews of the Twitter app, which people judge me for. But like, I really struggle with how to DM people and I just don’t understand it. And because I’m on Fox news a lot, I get a lot of not nice people there. And if they want to actually engage with me, they have to come to Instagram and then we have honestly become very good friends. They call me not nice words to start. But yeah. Well, thank you, Graham. You’ll find me.
Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Thank you. And Jay and I have to tell you personally, you know, Jenna didn’t even know me and she responded right back to, to Instagram. So like I can tell you from firsthand experience, she’s incredibly responsive. So thank you so much for being, for being real for coming from the, I don’t know, minds for putting my perfectionism in check for inspiring me and the rest of the women in the country and to our listeners. It’s our intention behind this show that it inspires you to go out and have authentic non performative conversations where you get to root of issues and connect because you need to connect in order to bring this back to healing. We need each other. So thank you so much for taking the time to listen and make it a great day.
Outro: You’ve been listening to hidden human, the stories behind the business leader. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes to learn more about Kelly and the services she provides. Visit you loud and clear.com. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be back soon with a new episode.[/vc_column_text][vc_column_text][/vc_column_text][/vc_column_inner][/vc_row_inner][/toggle][/toggles][/vc_column][/vc_row]
